Phoenix 0.3 Coming Soon
Friday October 11th, 2002
Blake Ross writes in with information on the upcoming Phoenix release: "Please bang on the current Phoenix nightlies and help us shake out any last minute bugs. We hope to release Phoenix 0.3 as soon as Monday and need as many eyes on the builds as possible. Areas that could use some real hammering on include bookmarks and the bookmarks toolbar, pop-up controls, toolbar customization, autocomplete and tabbed browsing. Thanks!"
#1 It's looking good...
Saturday October 12th, 2002 4:55 AM
Phoenix 0.3 is looking pretty good. It's been pretty stable for me on my XP box. I am wondering about one thing: Will the programable toolbar make its way into the main Mozilla builds? If it does, it would render moot the concerns about no home button and more general gripes about the UI.
#18 Re: It's looking good...
Saturday October 12th, 2002 8:20 PM
I believe their plan is not only to integrate the Phoenix changes into Mozilla, but to actually /replace/ the Mozilla trunk with the Phoenix builds once Phoenix catches up on Mozilla in features. The developers also seem to prefer working on Phoenix because of its cleaner code.
Sunday October 13th, 2002 10:59 PM
The bookmarks menu 'simplification' is wrong! There should still be a distinction between 'add bookmark' and 'file bookmark', one that automatically add a bookmark in the 'New Bookmark Folder' (where is has that option gone? it's a really useful shortcut!!) and one that lets your choose which folder to put it in. But the most important thing is that a simple 'SELECT' menu is not enough in the folder chooser when you have a big bookmark file which is divided in many folders and subfolders! The tree chooser like in Mozilla should be put back!!
Other options I always wanted in Mozilla and now in Phoenix too is is (collapsible and collapsed by default) 'Keyword' and 'Description' input boxes in that menu so you don't need to open the Bookmarks Manager and go set them afterwards which takes much more time for nothing.
Thanks again for your hard work, all things reconsidered, Phoenix really rocks and is now my default browser.
One more thing which applies to both Mozilla and Phoenix: they should not try to make themselves default image viewers when asking to be the 'default browser' (which they are not good at, not being meant for this...) and only register HTML, XHTML, XML, XUL, HTTP, HTTPS, CHROME, GOPHER and (maybe) FTP.
#36 Please not the default image viewer
Monday October 14th, 2002 7:04 AM
I heartily second the notion that mozilla/phoenix's insistence on grabbing image file extensions is highly annoying to me and just about everyone i've installed it for.
Please don't grabe image file extensions - or at least ask.
#2 Preferences causes XML parsing Error
Saturday October 12th, 2002 5:08 AM
I just downloaded and installed the nightly build (10-11-02) of Phoenix for Linux, and the Preferences causes a XML Parsing Error as shown below:
XML Parsing Error: undefined entity Location: chrome://browser/content/pref/pref.xul Line Number 116, Column 88:
<treecell url="chrome://browser/content/pref-winhooks.xul" Lablel="&winhooks.lablel;"/>
I had renamed my old .phoenix folder so a new one would be created when I installed Phoenix in the /opt directory and run on Mandrake 9.
#5 [FIXED] Re: Preferences causes XML parsing Error
Saturday October 12th, 2002 9:51 AM
This bug has been fixed.
Saturday October 12th, 2002 6:20 AM
Is there an FAQ anywhere for Phoenix?
I have a lot of simple questions like:
Is there a separate Icon pack for Phoenix? Can I import bookmarks from Mozilla? Can I change the Throbber?
#7 Re: TonyG
Saturday October 12th, 2002 10:28 AM
I would like a more "thorough" description, on what I have to do to run Phoenix under Linux.
Under Windows, no problem. But with Linux I have downloaded the .tar.gz of Phoenix 0.2, unpacked it to /download/Mozilla/phoenix and the I always get the message, that this "mozilla-run.sh" (or what it's called, I'm logged into Windows right now) isn't able to start a mozilla-binary. I never figured out why it looks in that "other" directory, but the process of starting phoenix seems to include something I didn't do, because it's not mentioned on the download page. (Sorry for the "vague" error-description, by the way, I'll try to write a better one when I'm under linux the next time)
Other than that: I _love_ Phoenix! I think I'll stay with it for the browsing. And I'm very much looking forward to trying Thunderbird. (Now just give me the possibility to select another stylesheet, if the page provides more than one. :) )
#12 Re: Re: TonyG
Saturday October 12th, 2002 2:27 PM
It's very simple, actually.
mkdir phoenix && cd phoenix wget http://komodo.mozilla.org/pub/phoenix/nightly/latest-trunk/phoenix-i686-pc-linux-gnu.tar.gz tar zxfv phoenix-i686-pc-linux-gnu.tar.gz phoenix/phoenix &
Saturday October 12th, 2002 2:30 PM
Hmm.. the linebreaks didn't quite make it. But maybe you'll get the point.
#14 Re: Re: TonyG
Saturday October 12th, 2002 3:09 PM
are you seeing this problem? http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172706
#15 Re: TonyG
Saturday October 12th, 2002 3:32 PM
Uhm, yeah, that might be it. While I personally didn't set that variable anywhere, I'm using Gentoo, and it might be, that the ebuild-script vor Mozilla 1.1 enters that variable to my profile. So just "unsetting" the variable should do the trick then?
#21 Re: Re: TonyG
Sunday October 13th, 2002 3:00 AM
Schnacki, try to unset the shell variables MOZILLA_DIR and MOZILLA_FIVE_HOME.
#35 Re: Re: Re: TonyG
Monday October 14th, 2002 1:53 AM
Yep, tried it, and now it works just fine! Wonderful. Thanks for the help and thanks to those who work on Mozilla and Phoenix.
#4 I Prefer to test Mozilla
Saturday October 12th, 2002 6:21 AM
Please understand that to me it is more important to focus on *one* major alternative to IE - and that is Mozilla.
I would prefer if Phoenix were treated as a "test platform" for experimental work, solely intended for then re-implementing the new code back into Mozilla.
IMHO many of the (radical) changes should have been made in Mozilla directly.
#6 Re: I Prefer to test Mozilla
Saturday October 12th, 2002 9:56 AM
"IMHO many of the (radical) changes should have been made in Mozilla directly."
Go for it. This is open source. You're free to make a stab at porting those changes over to Mozilla. The developers working on Phoenix, however, aren't interested in working on the monolithic Mozilla application suite. Would you have them stop working on Phoenix and go join some other open source project or spend all their time working on closed source projects for companies like apple or microsoft?
"I would prefer if Phoenix were treated as a "test platform" for experimental work, solely intended for then re-implementing the new code back into Mozilla."
I wouldn't. And neither would the developers working on Phoenix.
#8 Re: I Prefer to test Mozilla
Saturday October 12th, 2002 10:46 AM
WOW, you guys must be *very* disappointed with how Mozilla is being managed.
Was Mitchell not willing to steer things more in the direction you guys thought was right, at least enough to reach a compromise.
It saddens me to see that such prominent members of the Mozilla community (you Phoenix guys - the name Phoenix alone implies so much) so dissatisfied that you would create a non returning branch.
Well, maybe mozilla will benefit from your work. Or maybe Phoenix will one day be even better than Mozilla...
#17 Re: I Prefer to test Mozilla
Saturday October 12th, 2002 6:23 PM
There is a lot of red tape when you want to get a patch into mozilla. With their own fork, they could avoid that and do what they want. Develop the product the way they want too.
#22 Re: I Prefer to test Mozilla
Sunday October 13th, 2002 6:11 AM
I doubt that is the reason. They are all "senior" contributors to Mozilla, maybe even all "drivers".
Considering the size of the project, the amount of "red tape" is minimal.
If it _were_ true, it would be a sign that they are not able or willing to work on a large project, even under near ideal conditions. (i don't think it is true!)
#19 Re: Re: I Prefer to test Mozilla
Saturday October 12th, 2002 11:16 PM
"WOW, you guys must be *very* disappointed with how Mozilla is being managed."
I'm not terribly disappointed with how Mozilla is being managed. I'm one of the people managing it.
"Was Mitchell not willing to steer things more in the direction you guys thought was right, at least enough to reach a compromise."
Mitchell, myself, Brendan and others of mozilla.org staff support the Phoenix effort.
#23 Re: I Prefer to test Mozilla
Sunday October 13th, 2002 6:17 AM
> Mitchell, myself, Brendan and others of mozilla.org > staff support the Phoenix effort.
Mitchell would "support it for one of two reasons:
1. She doesn't want to loose you, and therefore loosened your "leach" considerably (i know there exists no "leach").
2. Mitchell also sees serious problems with mozilla (heavy commercial interest (netscape), code bloat, etc.) and has conspired with you to create a better alternative; to then turn Phoenix into Mozilla when Phoenix is so good, that those opposing the changes today would look stupid to oppose then then. (ah, my personal little conspiracy theory ;) ).
#24 Dissatisfaction with Mozilla.
Sunday October 13th, 2002 6:37 AM
> I'm not terribly disappointed with how Mozilla is being managed.
David Hyatt certainly seems to be. From his Web log:
"Finally, remember that Phoenix's UI is not controlled by Netscape. This is an opportunity for some of the core Mozilla Navigator developers to build the browser that they have always wanted to build, without having to compromise the user interface to satisfy the various conflicting pressures exerted by factions within Netscape."
A tacit admission of something that's always been vehemently denied by all Mozilla parties in the past - that Netscape exerts too much control over the project.
#26 Re: Dissatisfaction with Mozilla.
Sunday October 13th, 2002 8:13 AM
Too Much Control? Netscape provided the original source, The trademarked name of the project, hosts it, pays for the bandwidth that is used when you download something from Mozilla.org, and is footing the bill for the salaries of most of the people working full time on the project. They have sunk a hell of a lot of money into the Mozilla project, and it's absurd to think that Netscape would pay millions of dollars and have zero input on what the software will do.
As long as Netscape is footing the bill for most of the code that goes into Mozilla they will have a major voice in deciding what that code is. Few employees have the luxary of working on whatever code they feel like. They are assigned a project to work on, and if they want to remain employed that is what they write.
Don't like Netscape's influance on Mozilla? You are free to fork the code at any time. Download the source, set up a cvs server and a web site, and announce your new internet software project. Just don't make a hypocrit out of yourself by attempting to exert any control over the project you started and are paying for.
#31 this phoenix prooves mozilla.org's independance
Sunday October 13th, 2002 1:00 PM
the fact that phoenix exists and is being supported and promoted by the mozilla.org infrastucture prooves how independant mozilla really is.
#9 Please fix crasher bug 172758
Saturday October 12th, 2002 12:52 PM
It'd be great to fix this crasher bug 172758, I hit it many times a day, I tried to submit a detailed stack trace on a Linux build but it just freezes the whole desktop, had to kill Mozilla on console and then the stack is unusable in GDB. :(
#10 False Assumptions
Saturday October 12th, 2002 1:47 PM
Why does everyone assume that Mozilla (the browser suite) is at odds with Phoenix? Why is it so ludicrous to think that a R&D project can only be undertaken by a "real company"? And who is to say that after proving itself Phoenix won't become (a part of) the Mozilla suite?
If Phoenix, Thunderbird, etc. pan out it might make sense to develop these technologies into Mozilla 2.0.... And if it doesn't pan out as planned, or it simply isn't the direction that the overall mozilla project wishes to steer, then surely some good technologies will come out of Phoenix which can be brought back into the main trunk...
I think it is ridiculous that everyone instantly assumes that this is a big deal... If Mozilla (the organization) doesn't experiment with new ideas, where will the innovation come from?
#16 Re: False Assumptions
Saturday October 12th, 2002 5:05 PM
I think there are only a reactionary few who are taking the development of Phoenix and Thunderbird as a problem. I agree with you, my opinion is that the breaking up of the components is really where moz should go (and aparently and is going) for 2.0. I can't remember what they were called, but I remember reading about a couple efforts to split up the fundamental components of the mozilla development platfor (xul, the networking code, etc) into self contained libraries. looking forward to it
#44 Re: Re: False Assumptions
Monday October 14th, 2002 4:50 PM
"I agree with you, my opinion is that the breaking up of the components is really where moz should go"
I agree with that too, but first make the monolitic Mozilla, that we all love and use, more bug free.
#30 Re: False Assumptions
Sunday October 13th, 2002 11:30 AM
Also has anyone considered that Mozilla had to be done before Phoenix (ie. a lightweight browser) could even be considered. Netscape (AOL?) would probably never have bankrolled a simple browser - there are lots of those. Now a brand new complete development environment which happens to include a browser is an entirely different matter. Mozilla will be the base for many internet technologies (Galeon, EOne, Chimera, etc.) of which Phoenix is only one. Thinking of Mozilla as a browser does it a disservice. That said I don't use it anymore - Phoenix is just too good.
#11 Heartily Agree
Saturday October 12th, 2002 2:16 PM
If you don't diversify or try new things - you end up with an aging, uninteresting product.
Mozilla needs Phoenix - if only to show that there is always more you can do to a browser.
Who knows. Maybe Mozilla 2 will be a suite that is built of chatzila, thundebird phoenix and composercoolzilla :)
#45 Re: They've done the un-do-able
Monday October 14th, 2002 4:59 PM
"Mozilla needs Phoenix - if only to show that there is always more you can do to a browser."
Mozilla needs a browser that does as little as possible to remind people of Netscape and Communicator 4. Mozilla also needs a browser that has the GUI features that MSWindows (and therefore KDE and Gnome) users expect. I think that Phoenix is definitely on the right track as far as both of those things are concerned.
Sunday October 13th, 2002 2:46 AM
Tabbrowser extention prefs is broken. Bug 173980 was marked invalid by asa. Configuring how the tabs behave is too important for me to not use it. This should be merged with Mozilla/Phoenix, not overlooked. Anyways, I'll stick with my Mozilla for a while more.
Sunday October 13th, 2002 7:09 AM
I've never understood the flexible spacer or whatever it was called. I could never find a way to resize it. Is this a bug, or am I just not clever enough? Either way, it should probably be changed a little more. Also, I think the customization interface is really clever and it works for phoenix, but if you ever get it merged back into mozilla maybe use something like IE's customization? I've been wishing mozilla had that for a while. Also, I'm excited for a way to view toolbars that are too big to fit in the window. I think phoenix is fixing a lot of the issues the mozilla has. Has anyone written new themes for phoenix yet?
#28 Re: spacer
Sunday October 13th, 2002 10:02 AM
The flexible spacer pushes anything to the left of it all the way to the left and anything to the right of it all the way to the right. This allows you to have buttons on the left and right without having to add dozens of the 20px spacers.
#29 Re: Re: spacer
Sunday October 13th, 2002 10:57 AM
Flex spacers add up to have more push when you use more than one so you can use two flex spacers on one side of a button and one flex spacer on the other for shifting the button off-center.
#37 Spacers are odd
Monday October 14th, 2002 7:12 AM
this rubberband effect is neither intuitively comprehensible, nor does it allow precice placing of icons.
1. Could you please also offer a simple spacer that has the same width as an icon. These can be combined to increase the space. --> e.g.: [Exit][ ][B][I][U][ ]
2. Also, a "vertical line" spacer would be nice --> e.g.: [Exit]|[B][I][U]|
Monday October 14th, 2002 8:59 AM
And could you please actually use Phoenix before requesting features that it already has? Thanks!
#41 and... I did
Monday October 14th, 2002 12:25 PM
I actually did use it about 1-2 weeks ago (0.2) and hadn't noticed any ability to add fixed-space and vertical line spacers.
Sorry for the oversight. :-\
#42 Remove your profile and try again
Monday October 14th, 2002 4:00 PM
You might want to remove your profile and try again. They are in Phoenix 0.2
#46 I don't really like that
Monday October 14th, 2002 11:04 PM
Could you allow spacers to be expanded and shunk manually? The flexible spacer, though understandable with explanation (and I still really see why it's like that), wasn't intuitive to me at all. This is minor, phoenix is awesome, thanks again guys.
#27 The character coding does not work so well
Sunday October 13th, 2002 9:27 AM
I downloaded the latest nightly build couple hours ago.
I used to browse some Chinese web sites, and I would like to turn on the Character Coding Auto Detect function:
View > Character coding > Auto Detect > Chinese (for eg.)
But it does not work at the moment. No matter which language I choose to auto-detect, it remains (Off) as always. I have to manually choose the encoding with
View > Character coding > More > East Asian > Simplified Chinese (for eg.)
This can get annoying, so I would like to see it fixed soon. Thank you to both the Phoenix and mozilla.org team to make all these projects happen.
Sunday October 13th, 2002 10:26 PM
Does form autocomplete work in Phoenix? Testing this... should be implemented if not! I know copying the [XXX].s file from a mozilla profile doesn't work... it should, no?
#33 Password manager
Sunday October 13th, 2002 10:35 PM
Yay, if you let it create a new [some_random_number].s file and rename your Mozilla one to that, it will use those passwords, but shouldn't it detect the file anyway? Well, it's the same issue as the 'salt' profile, it doesn't matter much and is good enough for me. But... where is the Password Manager for Phoenix? We need that... oh well, it's a young project, take your time and don't forget about your wives and kids to code this ;-)
#39 They've done the un-do-able
Monday October 14th, 2002 10:06 AM
Okay, hold on. Do I see real-time updating of link colors once visited? That bug's been in limbo forever, and everyone kept saying it would cause a big performance hit. Pr0n surfing will never be the same! Woohoo! Also, my favorite RFE, a "new window" button is in place.
My only gripes thus far are that I miss the search-bar being part of the location bar, and I don't know about some of the menu item reorganizations. Okay, sure Preferences might make more sense under tools, but who are these mozilla hot-shots to buck trends like this? ;)
#43 Re: They've done the un-do-able
Monday October 14th, 2002 4:45 PM
Yeah, I noticed that this weekend too -- I nearly fell off my chair. The future is now! I'm sure glad somebody finally had the horse sense to do a 'worse-is-better' implementation of this feature (Activate a link, change its color. Simple and expected) instead of what's been proposed for bugs 10491 and 78510. Those bugs could sit in limbo for another 3 years.
I guess that's what Phoenix is about. (sanity?)
Still, it only seems to work for middle-clicks, so I guess the future isn't quite here yet.
Some other Phoenix 'features' I noticed: - Ctrl-Q doesn't close all browser windows - If you type words into the location bar you get a google search, not an "invalid URL" error message.
Monday October 14th, 2002 10:50 AM
for me phoenix feels still way to slow (Celeron 433, 128MB RAM, debian 3.0)
#47 Classic Mac version
Tuesday October 15th, 2002 3:39 AM
Consider this thread your vote of support for an os9 port. The dev-team is on the fence.
If you wanna see it happen, post here.