Mac Developer Chat
with Mike Pinkerton


<chrisn> well, why don't we start. pinkerton, if you want to introduce yourself, we'll get introductions from everyone else and then get on to the questions
<pinkerton> ok, i'm Mike Pinkerton, XPToolkit engineer and Mac weenie. i've been at nscp for two years now working on both 4.x and 5.0
<shaver> I'm Mike Shaver, and I watch other people work on Mozilla
<Pavlov> we know :)
<chrisn> I'm Chris Nelson, and I maintain mozillaZine
  anyone else? feel free...
<kerz> I'm Jason Kersey, and I also work on mozillaZine
<Ben_Goodger> I'm Ben Goodger, and I shoot the breeze and look pretty.
<myk> Myk Melez, web app designer and i watch people who watch people who work on mozilla
<Improv> I'm Pat Gunn, FAQ maintainer and general irritant
<MattyT> I'm Matthew Tuck, and I really hate introductions
<Pavlov> i'm Stuart Parmenter and I keep pinkerton in line
<sabi> i'm Nicholas Riley, and I read mozilla newsgroups for amusement...
<FrodoB> Mark Anderson: College student, song writer, Tolkien freak, and Mozilla well-wisher extraordinaire, who likes all three major platforms Mozilla is made for. ;)
<Pavlov> windows95, 98 and nt?
<DaaWk> Dave Avery bugzill man and mozilla watcher
<sabi> that'd be true of 4.x
<WindWalkr> chris bergmann: mac developer
<Improv> Pavlov: BeOS, Solaris, and Linux?
<dmose> Dan Mosedale: various miscellany
<FrodoB> No. Linux, MacOS 8.5/9, and MacOS X. ;)
<Pavlov> macos?
  we don't look like my other mac apps
* pinkerton thwacks pav again. don't make me hit you again pretzel boy
<Improv> This feels a lot like #mozilla traffic in general
<pinkerton> chrisn: make me an op so i can boot pav ;)
* Pavlov shuts up and works
<Ben_Goodger> yeah dammit. where's my help item in the context men
<pinkerton> *sigh*
* sabi laughs.
<chrisn> ok. first thing. if a few of you could log this chat in case I get dropped...
  that said, let's get started. if you see a question asked, wait for it to be answered before asking yours...
  first question?
<pinkerton> .....silence.....
<chrisn> and you thought this would be difficult....
  everyone here is here to watch you get flamed!
<pinkerton> yeah, hey, i can just sit and code the whole time then
  i just got drag and drop in the personal toolbar working again
<Improv> This chat seems a bit silly and pointless now :)
<FrodoB> Is the Mac version basically on par with the Windows and Linux versions? I know that it was a bit behind back earlier this year, but is it pretty even now?
<pinkerton> like 5 minutes ago ;)
<FrodoB> <<Just trying to do... SOMETHING. ;)>>
<pinkerton> frodob: yes, it's pretty much on par. in terms of features there isn't much chance for things to be different.
<sabi> translucent dragging? :)
<pinkerton> frodo: but there are stil lthings we're working on like startup time, etc
  sabi: yeah, we probably won't see that in 5.0 ;)
<Ben_Goodger> okay, here's a boring one: how do you think mac users will perceive Mozilla given its appearance? what does it need to do to be accepted?
<pinkerton> sabi: but just maybe. if smfr or i get some free time ;)
<Improv> pinkerton: I imagine XPFE will help keep MacOS on-par in graphics with other platforms
<pinkerton> ben: i anticipate the mac community to really dislike mozilla.
  ben: it's a frankenstein of UI meshed from all 3 platforms.
<Ben_Goodger> pink: is there anything that can be done to soften the blow?
<DaaWk> and does anyone know of a "Mac"ish chrrome being worked on?
<pinkerton> daa: we're trying to get a native system colors version in the works, but i don't think we've started it yet.
<sabi> is there anything we (non-developers or developers only marginally familiar with mozilla) can do to try to make the release a bit more palatable for people who care about the look/function of it?
<pinkerton> i think that the main thing won't be the look, per se, but really the inter-operation with things like internet config and the like.
<Improv> sabi: Will something like NeXT's interface builder be developed to help people write XUL?
<pinkerton> or lack of good appleevent support
<sabi> I don't work for Netscape, why are you asking me? :)
<pinkerton> improv: the xptoolkit team wants to start on that as soon as we ship 5.0
<shaver> who cares if you work for Netscape?
<pinkerton> bingo
<shaver> pinkerton: internet config will work
<sabi> well, true.
<DaaWk> I was thinking more ( from read ing the mozilla newsgroups) of a "Mac"ish look and feel ( dialogs, widgets, etc)
<pinkerton> as to what people can do to soften the blow, i think we really need to wait to get people to see it before we guess at what they will and won't ccomplain about
  i guarantee that we'll be wrong ;)
<shaver> pinkerton: we built the url dispatching with that in mind
<pinkerton> we're hoping, actually, that apple steps up to the plate and does something like that.
<sabi> it seemed the major complaint about 4.x and internet config was the user profile thing, but now internet config has multiple profiles it might be a little easier.
* FrodoB now wishes he knew C++. He'd gladly help with Internet Config stuff if he had any idea where to start. But alas, Java is all he knows. :(
<pinkerton> sabi: yeah, we're working with apple on that.
  sabi: they're putting in some things we need, but it's still a slow process.
<ncode_> will mozilla have resumable d/l?
<myk> pink: are these things impossible to add (appleevent support) or is it just that they won't be there by the first release?
<shaver> ncode: resumable like in 4.x?
<sabi> cool.
<pinkerton> ncode: good question. any other mozilla-ites know the answer?
  myk: they won't be there by first release. we just don't have the time or the resources to do it.
<Ben_Goodger> doesnt silentdownload do something like that, or am I way off base?
<shaver> the infrastructure for byte-range HTTP and reget in FTP is in place
<pinkerton> myk: it's not rocket science, just takes warm bodies.
<shaver> nobody has exposed any UI for it yet
<pinkerton> but on the native look/etc front, we realized early on that we couldn't really use apple's widgets because they didn't do a lot of things that we needed, like respect CSS2 properties.
<ncode_> will it have a d/l manager?
<thelem> NS4 doesn't have resumable download, only the SmartDownload plugin which doesn't work across reboots
<WindWalkr> still
<pinkerton> ncode: like in ie for mac? probably not.
<shaver> NS4 has resumable download for FTP
  if the file is still in your cache
<pinkerton> ncode: but it shouldn't be hard for someone to do.
<chrisn> pinkerton: could you explain the CSS2 properties compatibility in a bit more detail? What were Mac's native widgets missing?
<enyad> any good reason the Mac milestone builds are so much larger than Windows and Linux?
<Ben_Goodger> shaver: does 4.x remove it from the cache? if it placed it in another temp folder, could it not remain there?
<shaver> I don't understand the question
<Improv> pinkerton: Will Mozilla for OSX be based more on the MacOS codebase or the Unix codebase?
<shaver> anyway, it's not Mac-related
<pinkerton> enyad: they are getting smaller and we are working really hard to pull out the low hanging fruit. also remember PPC code is bigger than x86 code
<shaver> so let's do it in #mozilla, not here
<ncode_> will the mercutio appearance be correct?
<pinkerton> ncode: we don't use mercutio anymore
  improv: mozilla with the mac impl of widget and gfx
<ncode_> 4.7 still had the plain menus, not chrome
<pinkerton> improv: it will use Carbon
  ncode: right
<chrisn> pinkerton: could you explain the CSS2 properties compatibility in a bit more detail? What were Mac's native widgets missing?
<pinkerton> ncode: the 4.x releases come from sustaining engineering, not the mainline developers and so don't have all the things that we really want in them.
  chrisn: ok ;)
<ncode_> will a new version of navigator be released?
<WindWalkr> is the macos version using carbon or appearance or what?
<ncode_> 408 is the current navigator version
<pinkerton> we needed to be able to do things like change borders, widths, colors, etc of the widgets to fit with the chrome that the user chose or to go in the webpages. apple's widgets only do gray.
<chrisn> please try to wait until a question is answered before asking yours... thanks!
<pinkerton> we've been talking with apple about api's for appearance manager to do what we want but it's not a high priority for them. so we had to roll our own.
  thank god themes are dead ;)
<sabi> heh, if they won't even give their OWN java team colored buttons, think of what they would (or wouldn't) do for mozilla...
<pinkerton> but there is still the opportunity to plug in native widget implementations, with the understanding that they will have severe limitations in terms of look
  ncode: there will not be a standalone navigator in 4.x. not sure about 5.0, but our new architecture makes it easy to remove what you don't want.
  windalkr: i don't understand you question.
<sabi> is there any sane way you can get rid of the window deactivation with popups, similar to the way (I know, eww.) Microsoft does it?
<pinkerton> sabi: it's been fixed ;)
<sabi> Oh cool.
  Need to get a later build..
<pinkerton> sabi: saari did it a week or two ago
<Improv> pinkerton: Will more of the things that are stealth preferences in Unix make it into preferences proper so MacOS Mozillans can use them?
<pinkerton> improv: such as?
<Pavlov> ssh
<pinkerton> haha, i could tell you but i'd have to kill you ;)
  did i miss anyone's questions yet?
<Improv> pinkerton: I know that more of the interface concerns are probably gone thanks to XUL, but 4.x's ability to remove the new stupid shopping button, et al..
<enyad> Carbon. Hmmm. So will it have the ability to vend any Services (a la Cocoa apps)?
<pinkerton> i've been typing as fast as i can ;)
<ncode_> tell me some mozilla secret commands
<Improv> pinkerton: I'm sure there were some other stealth preferences that MacOS people missed out on (esp those set by X Resources)
<pinkerton> improv: you'll be able to remove anything you want just by editing the xul file.
  improv: or add anything you want. that's the power of using xml for our ui
  enyad; probably not.
<Ben_Goodger> pink: if you were to make an embeddable form of the layout (like Adam Lock's ActiveX control, but on Mac), could you use the layout generated widgets with the layout control, but use native ones in the app you were building?
<ncode_> if i look at the mozilla source can i find the secret commands?
<pinkerton> enyad: none of us are too familiar with that stuff, mostly just enough about carbon to get it running ;)
<Improv> pinkerton: There were a few non-GUI things in there like confirm on exit, blink-disable (which never worked), so on
<pinkerton> ben: that was our original goal, but i think that stuff might have bitrotted. if it is important, we can work with whoever is doing the embedding to get it right.
  ncode: there probably aren't too many there. we haven't added them back in yet ;)
<ncode_> about:mozilla
<pinkerton> next question?
<Ben_Goodger> pink: I ask because even if mac users do not accept the default mozilla appearance, someone could always create their own FE using native code.
<pinkerton> about: will be back...just not in yet ;)
<Ben_Goodger> using the newer page in the classic tree? ;)
<pinkerton> ben: yeah, they could totally do that
<ncode_> will there be more abouts?
<pinkerton> ncode: you'll just ahve to wait and see ;)
  next question anyone?
<ncode_> will mozilla be out before w2k
<pinkerton> or things i didn't answer to your satisfaction?
<MattyT> mozilla is already out there
<pinkerton> ncode: w2k ships when? feb?
  yeah, so in some sense we already did ship ;)
<ncode_> yeah
<Improv> pinkerton: Probably later than that
<FrodoB> Could the widgets in any way be made to look more native than they are now? (e.g. On Mac, they look like Mac widgets, but function like XP ones.)
<ncode_> m10 is still alpha isnt it?
<pinkerton> we're hoping for a beta in that timeframe, but things are very up in the air.
  m10 is very very very very alpha
<shaver> why does it matter which side of the win2k release date we're on?
<pinkerton> frodo: yes, we need to do some tweaking on the look/feel to make people happy. right now we're more concerned that they work at all ;) we'll go back and pollish as we get closer to ship.
<ncode_> i liked the metoer shower throbber
<Ben_Goodger> FrodoB: I think the CSS standards etc seem to be tailored towards creating a Windows appearance ;)
<pinkerton> yes, css is very very windoze centric.
  there is even an MDI color in the CSS spec
<Ben_Goodger> pink: do you anticipate more changes to moz-css to accomodate Mac?
<chrisn> heh
<ncode_> is there a way to change the throbber?
<pinkerton> they are straight maps to the win32 api colors. blech.
<sabi> MDI? Ouch.
<Ben_Goodger> (being a fan of the Mac appearance myself)
<sabi> Forget textures...
<pinkerton> ncode; yes, you just swap in two new gifs or change the xul to point to a new gif of your own. it's very easy and requires no code.
<sabi> (Although, I guess with themes gone, we really -can- forget textures :)
<thelem> ncode: I think you can just change the image, if not edit the XUL.
  ncode: It can be done in NS4 too
<ncode_> hmm
<pinkerton> sabi: well there are always bg gifs for things, which is why we couldn't use apple's buttons way to tile a gif over them to skin them!
<Improv> pinkerton: How easy is it going to be to install new XUL interface files in mozilla?
<sabi> True, I guess you can set a bg gif for table or something with CSS
<pinkerton> improv: pretty easy, you should just be able to download things and put them in the right places.
<Improv> pinkerton: Restarting netscape or switching on-the-fly?
<Pavlov> on the fly
<chrisn> pinkerton: how do _you_ feel about the XPFE interface on Mac Mozilla? Are you upset by anything? pleased with anything?
<Improv> Niiice
<pinkerton> improv: restarting for the first revision probably.
  improv: and xul/chrome will have to be local. in future versions we want to be able to have xul live on the net, but we have to solve security issues with that first.
<Pavlov> it should be noted that CSS3 is better about not having all windows specific colors
<ncode_> will mozilla be able to handle gif background images better?
<pinkerton> chrisn: i'm pleased that it allows us to have a mac version at all. if we didn't go down this route, we wouldn't have the resources to ship a mac product at all.
<Pavlov> (but we don't support those)
<shaver> ncode_: do we handle them in the wrong way now?
<ncode_> yes
  they freeze everything until it loads
<shaver> you should file a bug
<Ben_Goodger> pinkerton: really, what was the state of the Mac Mozilla at the time the axe fell on Classic?
<pinkerton> chrisn: though i'm a little disheartened that it won't look like a mac app per se and we'll fall back into the same boat as ms did with office 4.2...for which they got flamed hard.
<Improv> ncode: Is that with the classic rendering engine or the new one?
<ncode_> 4.7
<shaver> ncode_: that's not mozilla
<pinkerton> ben: we were close to beta on 5.0 classic. it was pretty slick.
<shaver> ncode_: we don't care about 4.7
<Ben_Goodger> pink: but you say you didn't have the resources?
<Improv> pinkerton: Microsoft applications don't look much like Mac apps either though :)
<shaver> ncode_: does Mozilla handle them in the wrong way now?
<ncode_> why am i useing it then?
<pinkerton> ben: right.
<Ben_Goodger> (o_O)
<ncode_> i should be using mozilla?
<pinkerton> improv: office98 isn't too bad. neither is ie.
<shaver> ncode_: this talk is about Mozilla
<pinkerton> ncode: mozilla isn't ready yet ;)
<kerz_> ncode_: this chat is about mozilla, not 4.x, they are not the same thing
<Improv> ncode: He means 'we' as the Mozilla folk, not Netscape in general
<sabi> yeah, all that really happened with office 98 was that microsoft replaced the windows 3.1 style drawing things with apple appearance-looking ones
  anyway. very much off topic..
<pinkerton> but it got great press that they did that!
<ncode_> mozilla m10 isnt stable yet to use
<kerz> pinkerton: how much can be done about the start up time on mac?
<pinkerton> kerz: simon fraser is working his ass off trying to get it down
<ncode_> it doesnt let me set proxies
<pinkerton> kerz: it is so much better than it used to be.
<shaver> ncode_: did you read the release notes?
  I use proxies with M10
<Improv> ncode: There's documentation on setting up proxies on, I'm sure
<sabi> mozilla used to take like 2 minutes to start up on my mac. is MUCH better now
<pinkerton> kerz: but it is high priority that startup time be as fast or faster than 4.7, which is really fast for me.
<kerz> pinkerton: how is it in comparison to the other platforms?
<pinkerton> next question? did i get everyone?
  kerz: win32 is pretty fast, i think mac is a little better than linux.
<MattyT> pink: how has your new found fame and fortune affected you?
<enyad> will Moz support multiple users automatically with each distinct login? (E.g. User A gets a User A profile, User B gets User B profile, etc. Like IE but unlike Navigator on WinNT, for instance.) I guess the question applies to both the OS 9 and OS X multiple-user implementations...
<pinkerton> hard for me to judge, my mac is a 450 and my pc/linux boxes are 200's ;)
  matty: i now have to sleep with a gun on my pillow ;)
<shaver> enyad: profiles are XP, yes
<ncode_> is mozilla-mac-M10.sea.hqx the right file to get?
<pinkerton> enyad: god. um....we haven't even looked at the multiuser stuff in os9
<Improv> pinkerton: Do you think Carbon is the best way to do Mozilla on MacOSX in the future?
<shaver> .bin is smaller, I suspect
<pinkerton> enyad: it will probably work just like on unix, wehre every "login" has its set of profiles to pick from
<ncode_> there is no big
<FrodoB> shaver: I think he meant associating one profile with one user's login, and another with another's login, and so on.
<ncode_> .gin
<sabi> enyad - since the pref folder gets mapped per login
<ncode_> .bin
<pinkerton> improv: yeah, since rewriting the whole thing in java or obj-c is well...lame in MHO.
<sabi> ncode - one thing you can do is if you've got a unix box with a fast connection, grab it there and then use mcvert or hexbin
<ncode_> how cool is M10?
<pinkerton> frodo: right. i don't think we're doing that.
<sabi> that's what i do when i'm on a slow connection and can only get a huge .hqx file. saves download time significantly
<Improv> pinkerton: I mean, moving the backend to Unix but the frontend to Carbon might be an option
<pinkerton> ncode: download it and find out ;) m11 will be better for sure though.
<ncode_> 25 minutes till i get it
<pinkerton> improv: no. there is no more backend/frontend like in moz classic.
  improv; it's all backend now with a small bit of os glue.
  improv: there is no way we would write gtk on osX ;)
<ncode_> does m10 render better?
<pinkerton> better than?
  next question? anyone?
<shaver> is M10 sweeter than a duck?
<sabi> bahah
<pinkerton> i like ducks.
<shaver> what's the difference between an orange?
<ncode_> does M10 support plugins yet?
<MattyT> if a man does something in a forest and there's no woman around to see it, is he still wrong?
<shaver> yes, given the right kind of plugin
<pinkerton> ncode; yes, it does
  ncode; i think we got it working with realAudio even
<FrodoB> pinkerton: Are there plans to make platform-specific abstractions of the default skins? The new skin is, well, way too unspartan for most people, who prefer their nice little syscolor grey browser. :)
<ncode_> will mozilla release its own browser instead of it being turned into netscrape?
<thelem> yes
  They will release both
<pinkerton> frodo: you can always apply a system-color skin (assuming someone writes one)
<ncode_> cool!
<pinkerton> ncode: i defer to shaver on that
<kerz_> pinkerton: how much work is going into netscape specific stuff as opposed to mozilla/open stuff
<ncode_> no AIM!!!
<MattyT> ncode: assumedly we'll just get stable milestones
<pinkerton> frodo: the goal is to separate chrome structure (xul/javascript) from presentation (css)
<Ben_Goodger> Frodo: I'm working on one based on the previous skin. I want a plain browser.
<chrisn> pinkerton: do you think the cross-platform nature of Mozilla has been very accomodating towards Mac issues? or have you have to make more accomodations on your end?
<pinkerton> kerz: some, but most people work fully on mozilla.
<FrodoB> I realize that, but I was referring more to one that caters a bit more to platform-specific stuff (the various button spacing conventions or whatnot), or is the whole thing agnostic to such things?
<ncode_> will mozilla have a good bookmark editor that can sort?
<Ben_Goodger> FrodoB: overlays control the button positioning on different platforms.
<pinkerton> chrisn: it has been, but only because we have stubborn mac weenies on xpToolkit. left to their own devices most netscape programmers would make a win32 centric app.
<chrisn> ncode_: you might want to save these questions for the developer chat with Mike Shaver. :-)
<pinkerton> chrisn: the fact that drag and drop won't suck on mac (as much) is because i screamed and help my breath until people gave in for the mac.
<chrisn> ncode_: this is dealing with Mac specific issues.
<ncode_> yes
<sabi> woohoo.
<enyad> to cut down on binary size and [maybe???] improve speed, is there any way to use the common image libraries that'll be in OS X rather than those release w/ Moz? I guess if the OS natively supports jpg, gif, png, tiff, etc. via shared code, loading another implementation is a bit wasteful?
<ncode_> im using a mac
<pinkerton> frodo: let's let things settle out and see where current skin development goes. things are kind of up in the air right now.
<FrodoB> I'll buy that. :)
<sabi> enyad - there are problems at least with png display in quicktime
  iCab tried using quicktime for everything and had to go back because of bugs
<pinkerton> ncode: i hope so, but it might take a revision or two for us to get there. we're just concerned with getting back to 4.x functionality....which is depressing bevcause we fixed most of those lame problems in mozillaClassic.
  enyad: maybe, but we don't get those in macOS 8, so..... it's hard for developers tyring to write on both platforms.
  enyad: apple has been poor with exposing such things to developers.
<FrodoB> So, it basically is the case that Moz 5.5 or 6.0 or whatever will be the one where most users see big (non-widget-based) changes, because you'll be up to where you were with MozClassic, more or less?
<pinkerton> yeah, we thought about using quicktime but there are just things it can't do.
  frodo: i hope it won't take that long, but maybe.
  we really don't want to call this 5.0 because it has the connotation that it's superior to 4.x, but it's just soooooo different.
<MattyT> Mozilla 2001!
<pinkerton> new engine, new ideas, new paradigm. fewer features.
  next question?
<kerz_> pinkerton: would you rather have shipped classic as 5 and then moved to ngl?
<ncode_> Mozilla D
  Mozilla D1
<pinkerton> kerz: yes, but oh well ;)
<ncode_> Mozilla R1
<pinkerton> kerz: i did so much awesome stuff in mozClassic i was really sad to see all that work go to waste.
<FrodoB> How about Mozilla IDBBTC (pronounced id-bib-tick), standing for Mozilla is Different But Better Than Communicator? ;)
<pinkerton> haha
  next question?
<sabi> haha
<ncode_> will mozilla have cool icons?
<shaver> no
<pinkerton> acutally what really pisses me off is that we're making a lot of the same ui mistakes in mozilla as we did (and realized were stupid and fixed) in mozClassic.
<shaver> we're trying to find the ugliest possible icons
<pinkerton> it's like people have forgotten the past
<Ben_Goodger> pink: like?
<kerz_> like what?
<pinkerton> ben: like the sidebar.
<sabi> heh, yeah, apprunner doesn't exactly have an awe-inspiring icon
<ncode_> will mozilla have keyboard shortcut to enter preferences?
<Ben_Goodger> pink: you don't like the sidebar :)
<thelem> ncode: Yes
<pinkerton> ben: we discovered that we couldn't make a good ui putting everything on the side so we ditched it. now it's back. it's l8ike our UI team just forgot all those user tests we did!
<sabi> what kind of ui mistakes do you mean? non-xp compatibility or just general user-unhelpfulness?
<ncode_> like command-P
<sabi> oh, yeah, sidebars suck.
<pinkerton> ncode; you can always add it yourself. just edit the xul
<ncode_> but command-P is print
<Ben_Goodger> I quite like the sidebar. *sniff* then again, I'm a recovering IE5 user...
<pinkerton> sabi: general stuff, the sidebar is a good example.
<sabi> I think it might be that Microsoft is using sidebars in almost everything now, so "it must be OK"
<pinkerton> sabi: we went around and around for about 6 months with tons of designs and settled on one that didn't involve the sidebar.
<kerz_> pinkerton: is there anything positive about the new ui? ;)
<sabi> Aha...
<pinkerton> kerz: skins!
<sabi> I guess there's no nice way to do it on multiple platforms that involves multiple windows.
<thelem> Prefs is CTRL-E on windows, don't know about macs
<sabi> because of the curse of MDI
<ncode_> will mozilla have a news/stock ticker?
<pinkerton> kerz: and hopefully it won't be as loaded down with lame features, but more of a sleek and easy to use browser.
  ncode: unclear. the sidebar has potential for such a thing
<thelem> ncode: I am sure it can be done in XUL
<pinkerton> it could be done with xul for sure, and if you don't like it, you could just remove it.
<myk> pink: the first thing i do when i start up mozilla is minimize the sidebar
<pinkerton> our new architecture really makes it easy to just delte all the extra shit you don't want.
  myk: haha, and maybe soon it will remember that pref again ;)
<myk> i hope so!
<pinkerton> myk: that broke and no one fixed it.
<thelem> yeah, that sidebar is really annoying if you use alot of windows :-)
<pinkerton> we joke it's a netcenter requirement that the feature not work ;)
<myk> oh yeah, my latest build i can only minimize it so far
<Ben_Goodger> pink: do you think the placement of the sidebar might be a part of the problem?
<sabi> Well at least mozilla doesn't pause for QUITE as long as 4.x did when you tried to collapse a toolbar
<pinkerton> or that it crash if you try to close it ;) soon enough, people will stop trying to close it ;)
  ben: no.
<Ben_Goodger> heh
<chrisn> pinkerton: I seem to recall that Mozilla has problems with MacOS8 (or is it 7.5?) What was the problem, and why couldn't it be addressed in the code?
<pinkerton> sabi: true. our new layout engine rocks for that kind of stuff!
  we require 8.5
  it could be addressed, if we had the time.
  but we don't.
<chrisn> what was the issue?
<pinkerton> anyone on the net who wants to help?????
<sabi> apple says they're moving a few of the 8.5 apis back to 8.1 for use with carbonlib, that might help.
<pinkerton> we're using some os85 specific things in a few places.
<sabi> though probably not completely
<FrodoB> I know that you'd said something on the newsgroups way back when about Apple porting libraries to 8.1 that would make it possible to support that version, at least.... Did that fall through?
<pinkerton> sabi: a few, but not enough to make it helpful....and then we'd have to rely on carbon, which still isn't soup yet. scheduling nightmare.
  we want to rely on carbon to get us back to 8.1, but it probably won't happen for 5.0. just the timeframes don't fit well together.
<sabi> was thinking post-release, anyway.
<pinkerton> yeah
  that's a goal. we want to get on carbon for daily builds and stay there, but it's a moving target right now.
<ncode_> will mozilla have sounds?
<pinkerton> ncode: yes.
  ncode: works on win/linux now, we just haven't done it on mac yet
  next question?
<ncode_> throbber sound?
<pinkerton> ncode: if you want ;)
<thelem> ncode: y do you keep asking all these minor questions?
* pinkerton shrugs
<sabi> that could be almost as annoying as the sound when you move a window in 8.5+
<pinkerton> sabi: haha
  any other questions?
  deep or shallow? ;)
<ncode_> im not a programmer
<chrisn> heh
<pinkerton> or anything i didn't answer fully?
<kerz_> pinkerton: do you like the new ui?
<FrodoB> Are you as ticked as Simon Fraser was about the really unMaclike scrollbars? ;)
<MattyT> pink: do you think XUL will make the operating system into a commodity, hence precipating a move towards free operating systems away from the Mac? <ducks>
<thelem> Surely the scrollbars come with the skin...?
<pinkerton> kerz: the new ui has some nice things and some really really lame things, like the personal toolbar being 8 pixels high to give the sidebar as much room as possible and the disabled buttons being more visually distracing than the enabled buttons.
  frodo: kinda.
<sabi> the disabled buttons look like they're underwater.
<Ben_Goodger> MattyT: you could thikn about that another way, it'd free windows people up and let them use Mac :)
<pinkerton> matty: we thought that about 2 years ago...remember NetCaster? ;)
  matty: that obviously didn't happen
<kerz_> oy vey
<pinkerton> matty: we're not (i'm not) trying to replace the os, just help people write better apps
<MattyT> heh, I never bothered with that as it took way too long
<chrisn> I never expected to hear that name again
<kerz> Will netcaster be in 5.0?
<thelem> do scrollbars come with the skin?
<chrisn> :)
<pinkerton> yeah, we had this great "netscape platform" thing going and then realized that no one really wanted it.
<kerz> or constellation
<pinkerton> right
  kerz: shut up ;)
<kerz> aww
<Ben_Goodger> pink: is it true you program in a tuxedo?
<pinkerton> thelem: yes, you can skin scrollbars to do whatever you want.
<Ben_Goodger> ;)
<pinkerton> ben: i program in a speedo.
<Ben_Goodger> oh god no *shields eyes*
<MattyT> i program in a suit
  a birthday suit
<pinkerton> anything else?
* FrodoB was actually looking forward to Constellation. :)
<chrisn> ok, folks. thanks for stopping by!
<pinkerton> nice chatting with everyone.
<chrisn> and thanks to Mike Pinkerton for showing up
<ncode_> will the js and java engine be improved?
<Ben_Goodger> bye, thanks pink :D
<MattyT> thanks mike
<sabi> thanks... and i'll check out drag & drop.
<pinkerton> feel free to mail me with quetions or get us on the newsgroups mozilla.mac and the like
<thelem> thanks. Bye
<kerz> ncode_: no
<myk> thanks mike
<pinkerton> thanks to everyone who showed up