<chrisn> |
if the developers could
introduce themselves.... |
<waterson> |
i am chris waterson, i work on xul and
rdf and other stuff |
<hyatt> |
Dave Hyatt, XUL Guy. |
<rjc> |
I'm Robert Churchill. Chris and I work
on RDF (according to the org chart.) |
<chrisn> |
ok - why don't we get
quick introductions from everyone else? |
|
make 'em short, so we
can get on to the conversation... :-) |
<Asa> |
Asa Dotzler - fan |
<chrisn> |
I'm Chris Nelson, and
I run MozillaZine |
<MattyT> |
matthew tuck - annoyance |
<Ben_Goodger> |
Ben Goodger - UI hacker
:) |
<geek> |
Jade Meskill - superfreak |
<XULFool> |
Derek Neighbors - A
fool that thinks XUL is 2 Cool. |
<Sjoerd> |
Sjoerd Visscher - close follower |
<chrisn> |
hey pavlov |
<photek> |
Herve Renault - i did the "RedLizard"
chrome |
<Pavlov> |
hey |
<Andrea> |
My anme is Andrea Slate |
<Pavlov> |
i have a new chrome
for you i need to get packaged up sometime ;) |
<chrisn> |
Pavlov: cool - send it simeon's way |
<zinebot> |
Just appeared in MozillaZine
(http://www.mozillazine.org/): Mike Shaver's Response to
Computerworld Article |
<Pavlov> |
ok |
<zinebot> |
Just appeared in Slashdot:News
for Nerds. Stuff that Matters. (http://slashdot.org/index.pl?section=):
Simulating Human Musical Performance |
<chrisn> |
ok, anyone else for introductions? |
<Pavlov> |
Hello. i'm Stuart Parmenter
and i'm a geek |
<rjc> |
indeed, Pav. :^) |
* bugg |
feels that he doesn't
belong here :D |
<photek> |
zinebot has not introduced himself |
<zinebot> |
Tell me more about that. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
zinebot, hi |
<zinebot> |
g'day Ben_Goodger |
<simeon> |
hi i'm simeon and i'm do the chromezone
once in a while... |
<chrisn> |
ok, final note before
we start - if some of you could log this chat, I'd appreciate it.
I'm doing so, but my ISP will probably disconnect me at least once... |
<bugg> |
done |
<chrisn> |
alright - let's start.
we'll try to keep this as orderly as possible. Feel free to ask
a question, but if you see a lot of questions appear, hold off until
they're answered before asking yours... |
<saari> |
Hi, I'm Chris Saari and I'm denying all
responsibility |
<Asa> |
hyatt: quick definition
of XUL. waterson, rjc: quick definition of RDF |
<waterson> |
rdf is a model for expressing arbitrary
information |
|
we use it in mozilla as a vehicle for
unifying various client and server-side information |
|
for presentation |
<hyatt> |
XUL stands for "XML-Based
User Interface Language". XUL provides a cross-platform mechanism
for describing user interfaces in XML. |
<Asa> |
can you tell us where these things live
in the code? |
* shaver |
prepares his HeckleRay |
<Ben_Goodger> |
lol |
<chrisn> |
and could you maybe
give an example if it in action? |
<waterson> |
mozilla/rdf/content is where much of the
XUL content model is |
|
mozilla/rdf/base is where the RDF core
code lives |
<rjc> |
mozilla/xpfe/components
contains several RDF datasource implementations for different things |
<hyatt> |
layout/xul/base/src is where the XUL frames
(the visual representation of the content model) live. |
<chrisn> |
hyatt: could you explain
the components of an XUL toolbar? |
|
files, etc? |
<hyatt> |
A toolbar is a XUL container. |
|
Most XUL containers are extensions of
the box container. |
<chrisn> |
(box container: a construct
from the layout engine?) |
<hyatt> |
nsToolbarFrame.h,.cpp in layout/xul/base/src
is where you can find the code for the toolbar frame. |
|
"Frame" meaning the visual formatting
object for a given content node. |
|
A toolbar is just a container, so you
can put virtually anything you want inside it. |
<chrisn> |
hyatt: if I want to
create a toolbar, in what files is it defined? could you give an
idea of how someone would create one? |
<waterson> |
what are you talking about? |
|
use <toolbar> tags |
<hyatt> |
Do you mean how does
one specify it in the XUL? |
<chrisn> |
yes |
<waterson> |
see navigator.xul, etc. |
<hyatt> |
<toolbar id="myToolbar"><titledbutton
value="Button One"/><titledbutton value="Button Two"/></toolbar> |
<photek> |
will you ship a tool
for corporation to fully customise their browser before they deploy
it on a large scale ? |
<waterson> |
probably not. |
<CGI-BINux> |
Over the last few months,
I've noticed menu's have moved around and back, and other UI changes.
Will there be anything more added to the browser UI? |
<hyatt> |
Not before we ship at any rate. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
isn't that what the
CCK is about? |
<MattyT> |
can you explain all the terms i've heard
in conjunction with XUL, eg templates, overlays, fragments, etc. |
<waterson> |
yes, that is what CCK
is about |
|
it's not clear what's
going to ship, though. |
|
remember, we're just
engineers |
<hyatt> |
CGI-BINux: At this point, the Ui is more
or less solid. We aren't planning on adding any new XUL tags before
we ship. |
<waterson> |
they shoot us for telling
the public what will and will not ship |
<shaver> |
the 4.x-era CCK is not designed for the
kind of wholesale changes you can make to the UI |
<Ben_Goodger> |
well strictly speaking,
CCK isn't immediately neccessary, given XUL |
<Asa> |
rjc or waterson: what kinds of things
wil be stored in RDF and what pieces of mozilla will call on those
data? |
<danm> |
We'd like to ship a
visual UI editor someday; it's not on any Netscape person's schedule
for the first release of the product. |
<waterson> |
"stored in RDF" is not exactly the way
to look at it |
<rjc> |
Think of XUL templates
as a way of creating chunks of the content model from data in RDF. |
<XULFool> |
The documentation points to XUL Overlays
but doesnt go into any detail... So what is the status? |
<waterson> |
RDF is really just a
unifying API for accessing arbitrary things |
|
for example, bookamrks
are stored in an 4.x-style HTML file |
|
but they are accessable
via RDF |
|
Similarly, the mozilla
registry is stored in a binary flat-file |
|
but is accessable via
RDF APIs |
<rjc> |
Things stored in RDF include bookmarks,
history, file system, mail/news, window references, etc. Note that
what RDF is really storing is usually REFERENCES to the objects. |
<chrisn> |
waterson: is that teh
same for the info in the flash panels? |
<hyatt> |
XULFool: Overlays work and are used throughout
Mozilla. |
<XULFool> |
When can we expect to
see documentation on them? |
<hyatt> |
They are documented in a news thread on
mozilla.xpfe (XUL Overlays are Online!). |
<waterson> |
well, the flash panel
displays RDF/XML, which is a way to serialize the RDF model |
<delete> |
will netscape split the communicator mail
and news modules into separate apps? |
|
netscape 5 |
<waterson> |
delete: it is not clear
at this time. |
<bugg> |
uh, don't ask about netscape, ask about
mozilla. |
<photek> |
will there be some sort
of security checks in mozilla so that evil web sites wont be able
to tweak you UI without your agreement ? |
<hyatt> |
Web sites cannot change your UI. |
<dbaron> |
hyatt: You said that
there won't be any XUL tags. What about major new features? For
example, making toolbars (and other boxes) capable of holding multiple
lines of boxes so that they can resize nicely? |
<hyatt> |
"Boxes don't wrap" is a bug. |
<dbaron> |
Good. |
<delete> |
will mozilla 5 not include activex |
<photek> |
hyatt: the chrome gallery
on mozillazine has something like that |
<shaver> |
delete: if someone contributes an ActiveX
bridge, Mozilla 5.0 might have it as an optional extension |
<XULFool> |
I noticed that Flash
has changed a bit and been renamed Alerts? What was the reasoning?
Can we expect similar changes? |
<waterson> |
delete: this is not really an appropriate
forum for that, i don't think |
|
XULFool: marketing will probably rename
it 12 more times before we ship :-) |
<Ben_Goodger> |
will they add a shopping
panel? :D |
<waterson> |
you never know. |
<delete> |
how about a pgp module |
<rjc> |
Ben, yes, probably more than one. |
<MattyT> |
just as long as it stays
out of mozilla |
<Ben_Goodger> |
now I see why german wants to keep the
number of toolbar buttons down |
<chrisn> |
MattyT: you can already
configure what appears on your flash panel |
|
er - sidebar |
<delete> |
when will proxy capablity be spun into
a milestone release so i can test it? |
<MattyT> |
chrisn: yeah, but everyone
will want mozilla.org to link to them |
<XULFool> |
It works in M10 |
|
just edit prefs.js |
<chrisn> |
next XUL/RDF question? |
<Sjoerd> |
How fast are RDF templates, compared to,
say, generating XUL with javascript? |
<waterson> |
Sjoerd: haven't measured
that. |
|
i would expect them
to be slightly faster |
<Asa> |
hyatt: is xptitlebar even worth dreaming
about? |
<delete> |
will there be any security
holes in XUL/RDF ? |
<XULFool> |
Is there any standard way for developers
to code their own widgets? Or is this currently discouraged? |
<waterson> |
because they will not
force the layout engine to reflow quite as much |
|
delete: ? |
<chrisn> |
are you expecting that loading of large
mail folders will reach the speed of 4.x before release? |
<waterson> |
XULFool: right now,
the widget system isn't extensable |
<Sjoerd> |
delete: as a feature??? |
<waterson> |
(other than going in
and hacking a lot of C++ code) |
<XULFool> |
are there plans in the future for it? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
it'd eventually be nice
to be able to design widgets with widgets |
<waterson> |
chrisn: that is the goal. |
<hyatt> |
XULFool: Gecko doesn't
provide a clean way of doing this, so if you want to write your
own widget, right now you have to code it in C++ and put it directly
in the layout DLL. |
<XULFool> |
sounds fun ;-) |
<waterson> |
chrisn: our immediate
goal is to improve the speed of XUL |
|
overall |
<photek> |
why are you still using GIFs instead of
PNGs for the default chrome images ?) |
<shaver> |
photek: there were problems
with PNG on some platforms |
|
(*BSD) |
|
those problems have,
I believe, been resolved |
<XULFool> |
Is there plans for dockable toolbars in
the near future? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
it'll probab;y take
a while to get someoen to get around to changing them |
<shaver> |
we will switch to PNG in the UI in the
near future, certainly before beta |
<delete> |
will javascript have
to activaated to run XUL/RDF ? |
<chrisn> |
shaver: are you expecting 8-bit alpha
blending, as well? |
<hyatt> |
XUL cannot function
without JS. |
<shaver> |
chrisn: yes |
<delete> |
hmm |
|
that's a security hole |
<shaver> |
is it? |
<waterson> |
delete: ? |
<delete> |
cache-cow |
<chrisn> |
delete: not necessarily |
<shaver> |
delete: that's not the same thing as making
JavaScript accesible to HTML content |
<bugg> |
shaver: what were the
problems with png on the *BSDs? lack of a working libpng? |
<shaver> |
bugg: some library-loading problme |
<hyatt> |
XULFOOL: I do plan on
implementing docking/undocking in a future release. |
<XULFool> |
Is drag and drop between components a
future possibility? |
<shaver> |
what do you mean by
components? |
<hyatt> |
Drag and drop will be coming online soon. |
<delete> |
guninski suggests to
keep javascript and java deactivated |
<MattyT> |
would the different tag of menu items
and toolbar items possibily inhibit future possibilities of dragging
a menu item onto the toolbar? |
<rjc> |
Pinkerton is looking
into some D&D bugs right now. |
<hyatt> |
And you will (in XUL) be able to drag
and drop on anything in the content model with JS event handlers. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
how about draggable,
reziable popup content (or windows with variable styles) ;) |
<shaver> |
delete: ...for network content |
<bugg> |
libpng1.0.3 works fine
under *BSD, if that means anything.. or i could be somewhere wayy
else then you people |
|
hehe |
|
i'm in my own world. |
<chrisn> |
hyatt: it was there a while ago - or almost
- what happened? was the d & d code redone? |
<XULFool> |
XULFool bows to Hyatt! |
<hyatt> |
chrisn: It was deprioritized in favor
of performance and stability. |
<chrisn> |
hyatt: good answer!
:-) |
<delete> |
shaver, XUL/RDF are gui themes? |
<shaver> |
delete: I don't understand
the question |
<Pavlov> |
D&D is being started back on next
week |
<???> |
delete: they make themes
possible |
<Sjoerd> |
I think delete wants to know if we can
use it in our webpages |
<MattyT> |
bugg: See http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6323 |
<hyatt> |
XUL can be loaded in a content area if
desired. |
|
It is just XML after all. |
<geek> |
but it can't effect
the content "outside" of your iframe |
<Ben_Goodger> |
and you can use editor as a XUL editor
of sorts |
<geek> |
right? |
<chrisn> |
hyatt: won't there be issues with that?
mimicking toolbars, etc? |
<shaver> |
geek: correct |
|
chrisn: we will need
good preference control, with safe default |
<hyatt> |
chrisn: Those are issues even with pure
HTML. |
<delete> |
are there any sites
using xml yet? |
<chrisn> |
hyatt: true |
<hyatt> |
Especially with native
system color support in CSS2. |
<MattyT> |
XULFool: see http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15646
for the floating toolbars RFE |
<Asa> |
hyatt: What's the next
step for XUL. How will it be extended and for what purposes? |
<hyatt> |
We would like to move to a more extensible
world. |
* XULFool |
Thanks MattyT |
<hyatt> |
One in which composite widgets could be
defined in terms of existing widgets |
<photek> |
concering the "look
and feel", i suggest you find someone on a Mac who can design a
Mac Chrome, because many Mac Users are losing the faith... |
<hyatt> |
And one in which the behavior itself could
all be specified in JS. |
<MattyT> |
hyatt: could that be
done using a parameterised fragment? |
<XULFool> |
sounds good to me! |
<hyatt> |
In an ideal world, the
C++ code in layout/xul/base/src would all go away. |
|
The idea would be that
for something like a scrollbar. |
|
You'd be able to say
in CSS... |
* geek |
is liking that idea |
<hyatt> |
scrollbar { content:
url(http://somesite/mycontent.xul); } |
|
To get the content nodes
that comprise a scrollbar (thus allowing you to have an up button,
a thumb, and a down button, or maybe two buttons above and below
the thumb, etc.) |
|
And the behavior would
be defined by saying... |
|
scrollbar { behavior:
url(http://somesite/mybehavior); } |
<XULFool> |
That will be ready tomorrow. Right Hyatt? |
<hyatt> |
Which would point to
a file whose format has yet to be determined (e.g., js, htc, action
sheets, something) that would have access to drawing code etc. and
that could supply the implementation of the widget. |
|
Then XUL would be fully
and dynamically extensible. |
<Sjoerd> |
hyatt: in a newsgroup you once said you
could programm a bitmap over the window border and titlebar in Windows,
any plans yet? |
<hyatt> |
A worthy goal, but there's
a lot of work to get there. |
* XULFool |
gives Hyatt a Standing Ovation!!! |
<hyatt> |
Sjoerd, yes, this is
underway... it's called "Project Chromey". :) |
<MattyT> |
hyatt: waterson: rjc: how has your newfound
fame and fortune affected you? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
hyatt: are there any
plans for sizeable, draggable popups? |
<hyatt> |
Ben, in a future release, I'd like to
add draggable windows that could be absolutely positioned on a virtual
desktop. |
<Sjoerd> |
what's the status of
submitting XUL to W3C? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
cool |
<chrisn> |
If I want to have content
appear in a flash panel on the sidebar, what will be the preferred
format for that data? will I be able to reuse the XML file used
for my MyNetscape channel? |
<hyatt> |
Sjoerd: Nothing has happened yet regarding
XUL and the W3C. There hasn't been time to write up anything formal,
since we've been so busy coding. :) |
<Sjoerd> |
It would probably an
extension to CSS? |
<photek> |
isn't it a form of xml already ? |
<waterson> |
chrisn: i think we'd
probably stick to the RDF/XML format that we're using now... |
|
...did you see the spec
for that? |
<chrisn> |
waterson: no, I didn't |
<danm> |
Sjoerd,photek: yes,
it's probably more related to XHTML. in theory. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
I'd say it's its own language... for defining
structural elements, and you can use CSS to style your structural
elements, and JS to make them sing. |
<Sjoerd> |
the w3c puts all presentational
things in CSS |
<waterson> |
chrisn: http://www.mozilla.org/rdf/doc/flash-spec.html |
<danm> |
XUL uses CSS |
<chrisn> |
waterson: how do you expect the process
work regarding adding new flash panels? |
|
waterson: thanks |
<Sjoerd> |
see css-userinterface:
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-userint |
<waterson> |
chrisn: the plan is to do something like
the current "sidebar customize" dialog |
<hyatt> |
danm: they're talking
about the sidebar RDF/XML stuff... not xul. |
<MattyT> |
sjoerd: what controls there are is content |
<photek> |
is XUL a competitor
to NeoPlanet's skins in any way ? |
<XULFool> |
hyatt do you want more XUL questions? |
<waterson> |
photek: xul is really
just a tool we needed to get UI done |
<chrisn> |
waterson: seen that, but it's not clear
how I could get a new flash panel on to the list of "addable" panels... |
<hyatt> |
I don't think of XUl
as competing with NeoPlanet. All neoPlanet can do is change the
look. XUL can change the content. |
<photek> |
right ! |
<XULFool> |
are there any known
applications that use XUL as their framework? other than Mozilla. |
<waterson> |
chrisn: I think that there is a vague
reference to a JS "add flash" API... |
|
...we still need to get that done. |
<chrisn> |
waterson: ok |
<hyatt> |
XULFool: Not that anyone has told me about.
:) |
<Asa> |
rjc, hyatt, waterson:
what are you working on right now and what could you use help on? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
how about rginda's chat client? |
<waterson> |
see my bug list! :-) |
<Ben_Goodger> |
or that xmlterm thing |
<hyatt> |
I'm not coding at the
moment because my hands are still sore from too much typing already. |
<waterson> |
actually, i'd really love someone to take
over the "file browser" stuff |
<rjc> |
Asa: I'm trying to try
down memory leaks using the Boehm garbage collector. It would be
great to see more help from people in this area. |
<waterson> |
e.g., when you type "file:///tmp/" into
the URL bar, it brings up a tree control. |
<XULFool> |
what is the best way
for us as end users to help you further XUL and RDF? |
<waterson> |
there is a _lot_ of UI polish that needs
to happen there. |
<XULFool> |
when submitting bugs
what is most helpful to you? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
rjc: will it be possible to retrieve system
icons for filetypes somehow with the rdf:files datasource (or similar)? |
<waterson> |
XULFool: small test
cases! |
<rjc> |
Ben: Hyatt and I dream of seeing that
happen, but its up in the air. |
<waterson> |
if you can isolate a
bug down to a half-dozen lines of XUL & JS, i will kiss you. |
<hyatt> |
We'd like to have the ability to specify
a local file ICON URL. |
<chrisn> |
waterson: is that file
browser similar to the current ftp:// implementation? |
<hyatt> |
Then you could use it anywhere, in HTML
or in XUL. |
<XULFool> |
no thanks. |
|
on the kiss that is. |
<waterson> |
chrisn: they are one in the same |
<Ben_Goodger> |
hyatt: I'd like to be
able to pull the icon for *.doc say, when attaching a word doc to
an email. |
<hyatt> |
Ben, I agree. |
<waterson> |
Ben_Goodger: yeah, that'd
be cool. |
<rjc> |
Ben: Indeed. |
<hyatt> |
rjc and I requested
this feature around M4. |
|
:) |
<chrisn> |
waterson: ok - see what you mean about
polish! :-) Can any of that be worked using the public code (XUL
and CSS files, etc)? or is the source necessary? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
see: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rgoodger/lizard/mailcompose.GIF |
<waterson> |
well, stuff like being able to return
to a parent directory would be XUL changes |
<bugg> |
is this a file manager
or a web browser? I fear that mozilla will become too big for its
own good and not like boxes with low resources/become terribly unstable.
(Both of which are a problem with netscape) |
<waterson> |
e.g., adding a combo-box to the top of
the XUL file |
<bugg> |
Is there anythinig being
done about this? |
<waterson> |
there are other bugs that might involve
dabbling in a bit o' the implementation |
|
bugg: the "file manager" portion of the
browser is _literally_ a single C++ component (that could now be
done in JS) |
|
...and a XUL template |
|
it's about 200 lines of code |
<photek> |
how about locales and
XUL on unixes ? |
<bugg> |
will it be loaded on startup? or serve
as like a module? |
<waterson> |
bugg: it's not loaded
until you point to a directory listing |
<bugg> |
Thats cool. |
<waterson> |
photek: not sure what
you mean |
|
bugg: yeah, baby. |
<photek> |
will we be able to say LANG="cz" ./mozilla
? |
|
in bash parlance... |
<waterson> |
well, XUL is all based
on the Unicode XML stuff underneath |
|
it really depends on
whether that stuff'll handle it. |
|
tague or ftang would
be the guys to ask |
<XULFool> |
Are there any good working examples of
broadcasters and observers? |
<waterson> |
XULFool: check out the
address book stuff |
|
mozilla/mailnews/addrbook/resources/content |
|
it even uses the new
command dispatching APIs |
<???> |
there were issues a few months ago where
pages with lots of JS were slowing down the UI - what was done to
combat that, and will more be done? |
<waterson> |
you mean web pages? |
<chrisn> |
waterson: yeah |
<shaver> |
if long-running scripts
in web pages are starving the UI |
<waterson> |
ah. |
<chrisn> |
right |
|
sorry |
<shaver> |
then we should be servicing the event
loop from a JS_LoopCallback |
<XULFool> |
as more of the ui moves
to XUL and away from c++, what are the plans to keep performance
at a reasonable state? |
<shaver> |
easy enough to do, if we find that it's
necessary; file a bug against me |
<hyatt> |
XULFool: We're working
on addressing XUL's performance right now... |
<Ben_Goodger> |
IE has a feature that cuts long running
scripts short (prompts user with a dialog) (e.g. if they go into
an infinite loop). |
<chrisn> |
shaver: ok |
<Sjoerd> |
to build cool XUL without C++, it has
to be possible to get the current position and size in pixels with
javascript. Is this comming? |
<shaver> |
Ben_Goodger: so does
Nav 4.x, and so will Mozilla |
|
(if it doesn't already) |
<hyatt> |
Sjoerd, the DOM guys and I have talked
about this. |
<waterson> |
Sjoerd: yeah, we need
it for D&D |
|
so it'll be exposed
somehow. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
shaver: does 4.x do that? I've never discovered
it. The only wav I've been able to stop the scripts was to force-quit
the app ;) |
<hyatt> |
The idea is to have
the capability to obtain a presentation state from a content node. |
<waterson> |
there are proprietary MSFT extensions |
<hyatt> |
And then you can query
that pres state for properties. |
<waterson> |
that we're considering |
<Asa> |
Q: how does XUL simplify
internationalization and localization. |
<simeon> |
waterson: which ones? |
<waterson> |
it hasn't made it to
W3C yet AFAIK. Joki'd know better tho. |
<hyatt> |
Asa: DTDs are used to hold localizable
strings, and XUL uses chrome URLs to dynamically resolve to the
correct locale. |
|
Meaning that you can switch languages
without changing a line of XUL. |
<Sjoerd> |
also on the fly? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
you can also use string bundles to localise
javascript files |
<XULFool> |
When is your marketing
team going to quit having you do moves like flash to alerts and
start getting some positive press on XUL? |
<hyatt> |
Sjoerd, yes, on the fly. |
|
Although that isn't quite online yet. |
<photek> |
that answers my previous
question... |
<simeon> |
did anyone mention self registering xul
fragments yet? |
<chrisn> |
were OS-specific alterations
to the look and feel be possible? |
<waterson> |
not yet. |
<hyatt> |
Simeon, that is something
I'm looking into. |
<chrisn> |
s/will/were/ |
|
er |
<shaver> |
vidur and the MS DOM
guy are negotiating ways to get things like innerHeight and .x in
a standard manner |
<hyatt> |
Namely enhancing the chrome registry so
that a component can state that it wants to overlay another component's
UI with its own. |
<simeon> |
hyatt: rock. |
<hyatt> |
e.g., security could say it needs to overlay
the mozilla UI to add the padlock. |
<MattyT> |
will XUL be set up to
allow two "installed" skins which you can easily switch between |
<hyatt> |
I can only say what I'd like to happen... |
|
I would like us to ship with at least
two skins... a conservative skin using native system colors and
fonts... and a snazzier skin that shows off what XUL+CSS can do. |
|
But there's a question of resources. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
has any thought been
given as to how to patch the UI after market? (without having to
use smartupdate) |
<hyatt> |
In-house we don't have the bandwidth to
develop several skins. |
|
Something the Net could help us with. |
|
Ben, yes. |
|
It will involve using XPInstall. |
<MattyT> |
hyatt: but can they
both be installed at the same time if you had two? |
<hyatt> |
MattyT, yes. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
smartupdate restricts
updates to NSCP only, whereas it'd be cool to have a way to add
stuff on the fly, stuff made by anyone and everyone. |
<hyatt> |
And there will be a UI for switching between
skins. |
<MattyT> |
excellent |
<chrisn> |
hyatt: what about the question of Mac
look and feel? Will OS-specific alterations to XUL be possible to
address the needs of Mac users? |
<photek> |
hyatt: that's great |
<hyatt> |
XpInstall is not restricted to NSCP. |
|
chrisn: absolutely. |
<chrisn> |
hyatt: great |
<hyatt> |
Although we can only get so close. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
where can I find more
info about xpinstall? |
<shaver> |
Ben_Goodger: just in the code, unfortunately |
<hyatt> |
When it comes down to
it, XUL is XP, and that does make chasing the OS UI problematic. |
<waterson> |
Ben_Goodger: bug dveditz |
<Ben_Goodger> |
haha, okay :) |
<chrisn> |
hyatt: right |
<Sjoerd> |
are systemcolors only
yet? |
<hyatt> |
They are online, yes. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
but do they work? ;) |
<Sjoerd> |
like in CSS2 and IE? |
<chrisn> |
system colors would
be a good addition for the beta |
<MattyT> |
assumedly some sort of fragment mechanism
would be useful for button order, but you'd really need them to
be parameterised |
<hyatt> |
Ben, they work on Win32
and Mac. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
really?! |
<hyatt> |
haven't tried Linux. |
|
MattyT: for Ui alterations,
overlays will be used, although that probably won't happen in the
first release. |
<chrisn> |
well, we have fie minutes left, and I
was curious to know what you had planned for future releases - any
blue-sky stuff you'd like to share? |
<MattyT> |
hyatt: I mean representing
different button orders on platforms - by default, they should be
different |
<hyatt> |
I'd like to do some of what matty was
talking about... |
|
e.g., Ui mechanisms for toolbar alteration
and reordering (which existed in MozillaClassic) |
<Ben_Goodger> |
that stuff rocked (except
for the dialogs for doing it ;) |
<rjc> |
chrisn: TONS of future ideas. Various
RDF datasources (LDAP is a good example). Better FTP / local file
integration so that you can just drag&drop in-between the two
to upload/download. |
<Asa> |
hyatt, will you ever
persue xptitlebar for win and linux so we can have a more neoplanet
like skin |
<rjc> |
Lots of people are interested in seeing
"remote bookmarks" that can be shared. There are lots of ways of
doing this. |
<hyatt> |
And I'd like to add
more functionality to XUL like docking/.undocking, internal windows
on a desktop background, some other new widgets, etc. |
|
Asa, I don't think an
XP title bar on the outside window is the way to go. |
|
I think we should map
images into the title bar, but not alter its behavior. |
<shaver> |
Asa: you could do something like that
already, just do a dialog (no title bar) and put some content in
the window |
<waterson> |
with enough information
available via the generic RDF API |
<Asa> |
ok. |
<Sjoerd> |
hyatt: not even for
mozilla 7.0 ? |
<simeon> |
non-rectangular windows? |
<waterson> |
you begin to be able
to do interesting things like running an inference engine over it |
<rjc> |
Better internet searching. We already
allow aggregating of results from multiple search engines. We need
to extend this even more, take it to the next level. |
<waterson> |
e.g., a mail filter
that can interact with your bookmarks and addressbook |
<Ben_Goodger> |
rjc: I'm keen on offering at least some
search behaviour in the sidebar. |
<waterson> |
there are people currently
working on getting prolog hooked up to the RDF APIs |
<chrisn> |
waterson: ah - cool |
<hyatt> |
Sjoerd, I think the
better direction is to enhance Mozilla to have a notion of internal
windows that can be mnimized, maximized, etc. and dragged around
on a desktop |
<shaver> |
simeon: non-rectangular are _hard_ to
do XP |
<MattyT> |
I'd like a UI that automatically
determined my optimal usages patterns and moulded to it =) |
<rjc> |
Ben: yes, indeed. We need to do this right,
so it isn't just a "Search Netcenter" type panel. |
<simeon> |
shaver: dream the impossible
dream |
<hyatt> |
Rather than trying to take over the functionality
of the title bar (which serves no real purpose as far as I can tell). |
<Ben_Goodger> |
rjc: people (magazines)
have criticised 4.x in the past for its popup windows, more fully
featured or not. |
<Sjoerd> |
hyatt: ok , i don't need my windows desktop |
<myk> |
generic question: i
find my programming goes a lot faster near the end of a product
release than near the beginning. is this going to happen to mozilla,
such that we will shortly see rapid advances in functionality/performance/features/etc.
as you go towards beta? |
<waterson> |
wish I could say "yes" :-) |
<hyatt> |
I think you may see
that, but frankly we're still in the midgame (rather than the endgame). |
<waterson> |
i guess we'll see... |
<photek> |
how is the XUL development
advanced, compared to the other parts ? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
rjc: some search providers already provide
"thin" panels for use in IE's search bar. Adding a panel to support
them wouldn't be hard, as long as "_main" was mapped to "_content"
for content window targetting. |
<XULFool> |
does your project manager
really hit you with a whip? |
<hyatt> |
Owww. |
|
:) |
<waterson> |
cattleprod |
<rjc> |
Ben: <nod> One of the many problems
with the sidebar is that it can only display so much info, before
it takes more space that the content area. |
<delete> |
will mozilla have download
resume? |
<shaver> |
delete: how do you mean? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
the panel headers take
up so much space, unfortunately. It'd be nice if there were a way
to maximise a panel, and maintain a list of available panels somewhere
(e.g. a context menu) for quick switching |
<rjc> |
Ben: yes, although I have to admit that
I'm a proponent of aggregating search results from multiple engines,
and being "smart" about it. |
<hyatt> |
delete: your questions
are good, but they aren't really relevant to the topic. |
<shaver> |
delete: you should ask in #mozilla, maybe |
<chrisn> |
ok ,folks, we gotta
wrap this chat up... |
<waterson> |
ok, gotta run. |
|
thanks a lot. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
hehe |
<chrisn> |
thanks to hyatt, rjc, and waterson for
their time! |
<hyatt> |
later |
<chrisn> |
and shaver! |
<rjc> |
Yeah, thanks! |
<Asa> |
thanks guys. |
<photek> |
thanks |
<Ben_Goodger> |
http://www.mozilla.org/xpfe/gettingstarted.html |
<myk> |
thanks |
<XULFool> |
thanks all. |
<MattyT> |
thanks |
<geek> |
thanks guys! |
<zinebot> |
Just appeared in Slashdot:News
for Nerds. Stuff that Matters. (http://slashdot.org/index.pl?section=):
William Gibson in The News ... Encyclopedia Britannica Goes To The
Free |
<simeon> |
thanks thanks thanks |
<Ben_Goodger> |
for getting started
in XUL hacking :) |
<chrisn> |
and thanks to everyone for coming |
<Tekhir> |
thanks guys |
<Ben_Goodger> |
bye all |
<Sjoerd> |
for the fellow europeans:
sleep well! |