XUL & RDF - Introductory Chat
with Chris Waterson, Robert Churchill, Dave Hyatt


<chrisn> if the developers could introduce themselves....
<waterson> i am chris waterson, i work on xul and rdf and other stuff
<hyatt> Dave Hyatt, XUL Guy.
<rjc> I'm Robert Churchill. Chris and I work on RDF (according to the org chart.)
<chrisn> ok - why don't we get quick introductions from everyone else?
  make 'em short, so we can get on to the conversation... :-)
<Asa> Asa Dotzler - fan
<chrisn> I'm Chris Nelson, and I run MozillaZine
<MattyT> matthew tuck - annoyance
<Ben_Goodger> Ben Goodger - UI hacker :)
<geek> Jade Meskill - superfreak
<XULFool> Derek Neighbors - A fool that thinks XUL is 2 Cool.
<Sjoerd> Sjoerd Visscher - close follower
<chrisn> hey pavlov
<photek> Herve Renault - i did the "RedLizard" chrome
<Pavlov> hey
<Andrea> My anme is Andrea Slate
<Pavlov> i have a new chrome for you i need to get packaged up sometime ;)
<chrisn> Pavlov: cool - send it simeon's way
<zinebot> Just appeared in MozillaZine (http://www.mozillazine.org/): Mike Shaver&apos;s Response to Computerworld Article
<Pavlov> ok
<zinebot> Just appeared in Slashdot:News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters. (http://slashdot.org/index.pl?section=): Simulating Human Musical Performance
<chrisn> ok, anyone else for introductions?
<Pavlov> Hello. i'm Stuart Parmenter and i'm a geek
<rjc> indeed, Pav. :^)
* bugg feels that he doesn't belong here :D
<photek> zinebot has not introduced himself
<zinebot> Tell me more about that.
<Ben_Goodger> zinebot, hi
<zinebot> g'day Ben_Goodger
<simeon> hi i'm simeon and i'm do the chromezone once in a while...
<chrisn> ok, final note before we start - if some of you could log this chat, I'd appreciate it. I'm doing so, but my ISP will probably disconnect me at least once...
<bugg> done
<chrisn> alright - let's start. we'll try to keep this as orderly as possible. Feel free to ask a question, but if you see a lot of questions appear, hold off until they're answered before asking yours...
<saari> Hi, I'm Chris Saari and I'm denying all responsibility
<Asa> hyatt: quick definition of XUL. waterson, rjc: quick definition of RDF
<waterson> rdf is a model for expressing arbitrary information
  we use it in mozilla as a vehicle for unifying various client and server-side information
  for presentation
<hyatt> XUL stands for "XML-Based User Interface Language". XUL provides a cross-platform mechanism for describing user interfaces in XML.
<Asa> can you tell us where these things live in the code?
* shaver prepares his HeckleRay
<Ben_Goodger> lol
<chrisn> and could you maybe give an example if it in action?
<waterson> mozilla/rdf/content is where much of the XUL content model is
  mozilla/rdf/base is where the RDF core code lives
<rjc> mozilla/xpfe/components contains several RDF datasource implementations for different things
<hyatt> layout/xul/base/src is where the XUL frames (the visual representation of the content model) live.
<chrisn> hyatt: could you explain the components of an XUL toolbar?
  files, etc?
<hyatt> A toolbar is a XUL container.
  Most XUL containers are extensions of the box container.
<chrisn> (box container: a construct from the layout engine?)
<hyatt> nsToolbarFrame.h,.cpp in layout/xul/base/src is where you can find the code for the toolbar frame.
  "Frame" meaning the visual formatting object for a given content node.
  A toolbar is just a container, so you can put virtually anything you want inside it.
<chrisn> hyatt: if I want to create a toolbar, in what files is it defined? could you give an idea of how someone would create one?
<waterson> what are you talking about?
  use <toolbar> tags
<hyatt> Do you mean how does one specify it in the XUL?
<chrisn> yes
<waterson> see navigator.xul, etc.
<hyatt> <toolbar id="myToolbar"><titledbutton value="Button One"/><titledbutton value="Button Two"/></toolbar>
<photek> will you ship a tool for corporation to fully customise their browser before they deploy it on a large scale ?
<waterson> probably not.
<CGI-BINux> Over the last few months, I've noticed menu's have moved around and back, and other UI changes. Will there be anything more added to the browser UI?
<hyatt> Not before we ship at any rate.
<Ben_Goodger> isn't that what the CCK is about?
<MattyT> can you explain all the terms i've heard in conjunction with XUL, eg templates, overlays, fragments, etc.
<waterson> yes, that is what CCK is about
  it's not clear what's going to ship, though.
  remember, we're just engineers
<hyatt> CGI-BINux: At this point, the Ui is more or less solid. We aren't planning on adding any new XUL tags before we ship.
<waterson> they shoot us for telling the public what will and will not ship
<shaver> the 4.x-era CCK is not designed for the kind of wholesale changes you can make to the UI
<Ben_Goodger> well strictly speaking, CCK isn't immediately neccessary, given XUL
<Asa> rjc or waterson: what kinds of things wil be stored in RDF and what pieces of mozilla will call on those data?
<danm> We'd like to ship a visual UI editor someday; it's not on any Netscape person's schedule for the first release of the product.
<waterson> "stored in RDF" is not exactly the way to look at it
<rjc> Think of XUL templates as a way of creating chunks of the content model from data in RDF.
<XULFool> The documentation points to XUL Overlays but doesnt go into any detail... So what is the status?
<waterson> RDF is really just a unifying API for accessing arbitrary things
  for example, bookamrks are stored in an 4.x-style HTML file
  but they are accessable via RDF
  Similarly, the mozilla registry is stored in a binary flat-file
  but is accessable via RDF APIs
<rjc> Things stored in RDF include bookmarks, history, file system, mail/news, window references, etc. Note that what RDF is really storing is usually REFERENCES to the objects.
<chrisn> waterson: is that teh same for the info in the flash panels?
<hyatt> XULFool: Overlays work and are used throughout Mozilla.
<XULFool> When can we expect to see documentation on them?
<hyatt> They are documented in a news thread on mozilla.xpfe (XUL Overlays are Online!).
<waterson> well, the flash panel displays RDF/XML, which is a way to serialize the RDF model
<delete> will netscape split the communicator mail and news modules into separate apps?
  netscape 5
<waterson> delete: it is not clear at this time.
<bugg> uh, don't ask about netscape, ask about mozilla.
<photek> will there be some sort of security checks in mozilla so that evil web sites wont be able to tweak you UI without your agreement ?
<hyatt> Web sites cannot change your UI.
<dbaron> hyatt: You said that there won't be any XUL tags. What about major new features? For example, making toolbars (and other boxes) capable of holding multiple lines of boxes so that they can resize nicely?
<hyatt> "Boxes don't wrap" is a bug.
<dbaron> Good.
<delete> will mozilla 5 not include activex
<photek> hyatt: the chrome gallery on mozillazine has something like that
<shaver> delete: if someone contributes an ActiveX bridge, Mozilla 5.0 might have it as an optional extension
<XULFool> I noticed that Flash has changed a bit and been renamed Alerts? What was the reasoning? Can we expect similar changes?
<waterson> delete: this is not really an appropriate forum for that, i don't think
  XULFool: marketing will probably rename it 12 more times before we ship :-)
<Ben_Goodger> will they add a shopping panel? :D
<waterson> you never know.
<delete> how about a pgp module
<rjc> Ben, yes, probably more than one.
<MattyT> just as long as it stays out of mozilla
<Ben_Goodger> now I see why german wants to keep the number of toolbar buttons down
<chrisn> MattyT: you can already configure what appears on your flash panel
  er - sidebar
<delete> when will proxy capablity be spun into a milestone release so i can test it?
<MattyT> chrisn: yeah, but everyone will want mozilla.org to link to them
<XULFool> It works in M10
  just edit prefs.js
<chrisn> next XUL/RDF question?
<Sjoerd> How fast are RDF templates, compared to, say, generating XUL with javascript?
<waterson> Sjoerd: haven't measured that.
  i would expect them to be slightly faster
<Asa> hyatt: is xptitlebar even worth dreaming about?
<delete> will there be any security holes in XUL/RDF ?
<XULFool> Is there any standard way for developers to code their own widgets? Or is this currently discouraged?
<waterson> because they will not force the layout engine to reflow quite as much
  delete: ?
<chrisn> are you expecting that loading of large mail folders will reach the speed of 4.x before release?
<waterson> XULFool: right now, the widget system isn't extensable
<Sjoerd> delete: as a feature???
<waterson> (other than going in and hacking a lot of C++ code)
<XULFool> are there plans in the future for it?
<Ben_Goodger> it'd eventually be nice to be able to design widgets with widgets
<waterson> chrisn: that is the goal.
<hyatt> XULFool: Gecko doesn't provide a clean way of doing this, so if you want to write your own widget, right now you have to code it in C++ and put it directly in the layout DLL.
<XULFool> sounds fun ;-)
<waterson> chrisn: our immediate goal is to improve the speed of XUL
<photek> why are you still using GIFs instead of PNGs for the default chrome images ?)
<shaver> photek: there were problems with PNG on some platforms
  those problems have, I believe, been resolved
<XULFool> Is there plans for dockable toolbars in the near future?
<Ben_Goodger> it'll probab;y take a while to get someoen to get around to changing them
<shaver> we will switch to PNG in the UI in the near future, certainly before beta
<delete> will javascript have to activaated to run XUL/RDF ?
<chrisn> shaver: are you expecting 8-bit alpha blending, as well?
<hyatt> XUL cannot function without JS.
<shaver> chrisn: yes
<delete> hmm
  that's a security hole
<shaver> is it?
<waterson> delete: ?
<delete> cache-cow
<chrisn> delete: not necessarily
<shaver> delete: that's not the same thing as making JavaScript accesible to HTML content
<bugg> shaver: what were the problems with png on the *BSDs? lack of a working libpng?
<shaver> bugg: some library-loading problme
<hyatt> XULFOOL: I do plan on implementing docking/undocking in a future release.
<XULFool> Is drag and drop between components a future possibility?
<shaver> what do you mean by components?
<hyatt> Drag and drop will be coming online soon.
<delete> guninski suggests to keep javascript and java deactivated
<MattyT> would the different tag of menu items and toolbar items possibily inhibit future possibilities of dragging a menu item onto the toolbar?
<rjc> Pinkerton is looking into some D&D bugs right now.
<hyatt> And you will (in XUL) be able to drag and drop on anything in the content model with JS event handlers.
<Ben_Goodger> how about draggable, reziable popup content (or windows with variable styles) ;)
<shaver> delete: ...for network content
<bugg> libpng1.0.3 works fine under *BSD, if that means anything.. or i could be somewhere wayy else then you people
  i'm in my own world.
<chrisn> hyatt: it was there a while ago - or almost - what happened? was the d & d code redone?
<XULFool> XULFool bows to Hyatt!
<hyatt> chrisn: It was deprioritized in favor of performance and stability.
<chrisn> hyatt: good answer! :-)
<delete> shaver, XUL/RDF are gui themes?
<shaver> delete: I don't understand the question
<Pavlov> D&D is being started back on next week
<???> delete: they make themes possible
<Sjoerd> I think delete wants to know if we can use it in our webpages
<MattyT> bugg: See http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6323
<hyatt> XUL can be loaded in a content area if desired.
  It is just XML after all.
<geek> but it can't effect the content "outside" of your iframe
<Ben_Goodger> and you can use editor as a XUL editor of sorts
<geek> right?
<chrisn> hyatt: won't there be issues with that? mimicking toolbars, etc?
<shaver> geek: correct
  chrisn: we will need good preference control, with safe default
<hyatt> chrisn: Those are issues even with pure HTML.
<delete> are there any sites using xml yet?
<chrisn> hyatt: true
<hyatt> Especially with native system color support in CSS2.
<MattyT> XULFool: see http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15646 for the floating toolbars RFE
<Asa> hyatt: What's the next step for XUL. How will it be extended and for what purposes?
<hyatt> We would like to move to a more extensible world.
* XULFool Thanks MattyT
<hyatt> One in which composite widgets could be defined in terms of existing widgets
<photek> concering the "look and feel", i suggest you find someone on a Mac who can design a Mac Chrome, because many Mac Users are losing the faith...
<hyatt> And one in which the behavior itself could all be specified in JS.
<MattyT> hyatt: could that be done using a parameterised fragment?
<XULFool> sounds good to me!
<hyatt> In an ideal world, the C++ code in layout/xul/base/src would all go away.
  The idea would be that for something like a scrollbar.
  You'd be able to say in CSS...
* geek is liking that idea
<hyatt> scrollbar { content: url(http://somesite/mycontent.xul); }
  To get the content nodes that comprise a scrollbar (thus allowing you to have an up button, a thumb, and a down button, or maybe two buttons above and below the thumb, etc.)
  And the behavior would be defined by saying...
  scrollbar { behavior: url(http://somesite/mybehavior); }
<XULFool> That will be ready tomorrow. Right Hyatt?
<hyatt> Which would point to a file whose format has yet to be determined (e.g., js, htc, action sheets, something) that would have access to drawing code etc. and that could supply the implementation of the widget.
  Then XUL would be fully and dynamically extensible.
<Sjoerd> hyatt: in a newsgroup you once said you could programm a bitmap over the window border and titlebar in Windows, any plans yet?
<hyatt> A worthy goal, but there's a lot of work to get there.
* XULFool gives Hyatt a Standing Ovation!!!
<hyatt> Sjoerd, yes, this is underway... it's called "Project Chromey". :)
<MattyT> hyatt: waterson: rjc: how has your newfound fame and fortune affected you?
<Ben_Goodger> hyatt: are there any plans for sizeable, draggable popups?
<hyatt> Ben, in a future release, I'd like to add draggable windows that could be absolutely positioned on a virtual desktop.
<Sjoerd> what's the status of submitting XUL to W3C?
<Ben_Goodger> cool
<chrisn> If I want to have content appear in a flash panel on the sidebar, what will be the preferred format for that data? will I be able to reuse the XML file used for my MyNetscape channel?
<hyatt> Sjoerd: Nothing has happened yet regarding XUL and the W3C. There hasn't been time to write up anything formal, since we've been so busy coding. :)
<Sjoerd> It would probably an extension to CSS?
<photek> isn't it a form of xml already ?
<waterson> chrisn: i think we'd probably stick to the RDF/XML format that we're using now...
  ...did you see the spec for that?
<chrisn> waterson: no, I didn't
<danm> Sjoerd,photek: yes, it's probably more related to XHTML. in theory.
<Ben_Goodger> I'd say it's its own language... for defining structural elements, and you can use CSS to style your structural elements, and JS to make them sing.
<Sjoerd> the w3c puts all presentational things in CSS
<waterson> chrisn: http://www.mozilla.org/rdf/doc/flash-spec.html
<danm> XUL uses CSS
<chrisn> waterson: how do you expect the process work regarding adding new flash panels?
  waterson: thanks
<Sjoerd> see css-userinterface: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-userint
<waterson> chrisn: the plan is to do something like the current "sidebar customize" dialog
<hyatt> danm: they're talking about the sidebar RDF/XML stuff... not xul.
<MattyT> sjoerd: what controls there are is content
<photek> is XUL a competitor to NeoPlanet's skins in any way ?
<XULFool> hyatt do you want more XUL questions?
<waterson> photek: xul is really just a tool we needed to get UI done
<chrisn> waterson: seen that, but it's not clear how I could get a new flash panel on to the list of "addable" panels...
<hyatt> I don't think of XUl as competing with NeoPlanet. All neoPlanet can do is change the look. XUL can change the content.
<photek> right !
<XULFool> are there any known applications that use XUL as their framework? other than Mozilla.
<waterson> chrisn: I think that there is a vague reference to a JS "add flash" API...
  ...we still need to get that done.
<chrisn> waterson: ok
<hyatt> XULFool: Not that anyone has told me about. :)
<Asa> rjc, hyatt, waterson: what are you working on right now and what could you use help on?
<Ben_Goodger> how about rginda's chat client?
<waterson> see my bug list! :-)
<Ben_Goodger> or that xmlterm thing
<hyatt> I'm not coding at the moment because my hands are still sore from too much typing already.
<waterson> actually, i'd really love someone to take over the "file browser" stuff
<rjc> Asa: I'm trying to try down memory leaks using the Boehm garbage collector. It would be great to see more help from people in this area.
<waterson> e.g., when you type "file:///tmp/" into the URL bar, it brings up a tree control.
<XULFool> what is the best way for us as end users to help you further XUL and RDF?
<waterson> there is a _lot_ of UI polish that needs to happen there.
<XULFool> when submitting bugs what is most helpful to you?
<Ben_Goodger> rjc: will it be possible to retrieve system icons for filetypes somehow with the rdf:files datasource (or similar)?
<waterson> XULFool: small test cases!
<rjc> Ben: Hyatt and I dream of seeing that happen, but its up in the air.
<waterson> if you can isolate a bug down to a half-dozen lines of XUL & JS, i will kiss you.
<hyatt> We'd like to have the ability to specify a local file ICON URL.
<chrisn> waterson: is that file browser similar to the current ftp:// implementation?
<hyatt> Then you could use it anywhere, in HTML or in XUL.
<XULFool> no thanks.
  on the kiss that is.
<waterson> chrisn: they are one in the same
<Ben_Goodger> hyatt: I'd like to be able to pull the icon for *.doc say, when attaching a word doc to an email.
<hyatt> Ben, I agree.
<waterson> Ben_Goodger: yeah, that'd be cool.
<rjc> Ben: Indeed.
<hyatt> rjc and I requested this feature around M4.
<chrisn> waterson: ok - see what you mean about polish! :-) Can any of that be worked using the public code (XUL and CSS files, etc)? or is the source necessary?
<Ben_Goodger> see: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rgoodger/lizard/mailcompose.GIF
<waterson> well, stuff like being able to return to a parent directory would be XUL changes
<bugg> is this a file manager or a web browser? I fear that mozilla will become too big for its own good and not like boxes with low resources/become terribly unstable. (Both of which are a problem with netscape)
<waterson> e.g., adding a combo-box to the top of the XUL file
<bugg> Is there anythinig being done about this?
<waterson> there are other bugs that might involve dabbling in a bit o' the implementation
  bugg: the "file manager" portion of the browser is _literally_ a single C++ component (that could now be done in JS)
  ...and a XUL template
  it's about 200 lines of code
<photek> how about locales and XUL on unixes ?
<bugg> will it be loaded on startup? or serve as like a module?
<waterson> bugg: it's not loaded until you point to a directory listing
<bugg> Thats cool.
<waterson> photek: not sure what you mean
  bugg: yeah, baby.
<photek> will we be able to say LANG="cz" ./mozilla ?
  in bash parlance...
<waterson> well, XUL is all based on the Unicode XML stuff underneath
  it really depends on whether that stuff'll handle it.
  tague or ftang would be the guys to ask
<XULFool> Are there any good working examples of broadcasters and observers?
<waterson> XULFool: check out the address book stuff
  it even uses the new command dispatching APIs
<???> there were issues a few months ago where pages with lots of JS were slowing down the UI - what was done to combat that, and will more be done?
<waterson> you mean web pages?
<chrisn> waterson: yeah
<shaver> if long-running scripts in web pages are starving the UI
<waterson> ah.
<chrisn> right
<shaver> then we should be servicing the event loop from a JS_LoopCallback
<XULFool> as more of the ui moves to XUL and away from c++, what are the plans to keep performance at a reasonable state?
<shaver> easy enough to do, if we find that it's necessary; file a bug against me
<hyatt> XULFool: We're working on addressing XUL's performance right now...
<Ben_Goodger> IE has a feature that cuts long running scripts short (prompts user with a dialog) (e.g. if they go into an infinite loop).
<chrisn> shaver: ok
<Sjoerd> to build cool XUL without C++, it has to be possible to get the current position and size in pixels with javascript. Is this comming?
<shaver> Ben_Goodger: so does Nav 4.x, and so will Mozilla
  (if it doesn't already)
<hyatt> Sjoerd, the DOM guys and I have talked about this.
<waterson> Sjoerd: yeah, we need it for D&D
  so it'll be exposed somehow.
<Ben_Goodger> shaver: does 4.x do that? I've never discovered it. The only wav I've been able to stop the scripts was to force-quit the app ;)
<hyatt> The idea is to have the capability to obtain a presentation state from a content node.
<waterson> there are proprietary MSFT extensions
<hyatt> And then you can query that pres state for properties.
<waterson> that we're considering
<Asa> Q: how does XUL simplify internationalization and localization.
<simeon> waterson: which ones?
<waterson> it hasn't made it to W3C yet AFAIK. Joki'd know better tho.
<hyatt> Asa: DTDs are used to hold localizable strings, and XUL uses chrome URLs to dynamically resolve to the correct locale.
  Meaning that you can switch languages without changing a line of XUL.
<Sjoerd> also on the fly?
<Ben_Goodger> you can also use string bundles to localise javascript files
<XULFool> When is your marketing team going to quit having you do moves like flash to alerts and start getting some positive press on XUL?
<hyatt> Sjoerd, yes, on the fly.
  Although that isn't quite online yet.
<photek> that answers my previous question...
<simeon> did anyone mention self registering xul fragments yet?
<chrisn> were OS-specific alterations to the look and feel be possible?
<waterson> not yet.
<hyatt> Simeon, that is something I'm looking into.
<chrisn> s/will/were/
<shaver> vidur and the MS DOM guy are negotiating ways to get things like innerHeight and .x in a standard manner
<hyatt> Namely enhancing the chrome registry so that a component can state that it wants to overlay another component's UI with its own.
<simeon> hyatt: rock.
<hyatt> e.g., security could say it needs to overlay the mozilla UI to add the padlock.
<MattyT> will XUL be set up to allow two "installed" skins which you can easily switch between
<hyatt> I can only say what I'd like to happen...
  I would like us to ship with at least two skins... a conservative skin using native system colors and fonts... and a snazzier skin that shows off what XUL+CSS can do.
  But there's a question of resources.
<Ben_Goodger> has any thought been given as to how to patch the UI after market? (without having to use smartupdate)
<hyatt> In-house we don't have the bandwidth to develop several skins.
  Something the Net could help us with.
  Ben, yes.
  It will involve using XPInstall.
<MattyT> hyatt: but can they both be installed at the same time if you had two?
<hyatt> MattyT, yes.
<Ben_Goodger> smartupdate restricts updates to NSCP only, whereas it'd be cool to have a way to add stuff on the fly, stuff made by anyone and everyone.
<hyatt> And there will be a UI for switching between skins.
<MattyT> excellent
<chrisn> hyatt: what about the question of Mac look and feel? Will OS-specific alterations to XUL be possible to address the needs of Mac users?
<photek> hyatt: that's great
<hyatt> XpInstall is not restricted to NSCP.
  chrisn: absolutely.
<chrisn> hyatt: great
<hyatt> Although we can only get so close.
<Ben_Goodger> where can I find more info about xpinstall?
<shaver> Ben_Goodger: just in the code, unfortunately
<hyatt> When it comes down to it, XUL is XP, and that does make chasing the OS UI problematic.
<waterson> Ben_Goodger: bug dveditz
<Ben_Goodger> haha, okay :)
<chrisn> hyatt: right
<Sjoerd> are systemcolors only yet?
<hyatt> They are online, yes.
<Ben_Goodger> but do they work? ;)
<Sjoerd> like in CSS2 and IE?
<chrisn> system colors would be a good addition for the beta
<MattyT> assumedly some sort of fragment mechanism would be useful for button order, but you'd really need them to be parameterised
<hyatt> Ben, they work on Win32 and Mac.
<Ben_Goodger> really?!
<hyatt> haven't tried Linux.
  MattyT: for Ui alterations, overlays will be used, although that probably won't happen in the first release.
<chrisn> well, we have fie minutes left, and I was curious to know what you had planned for future releases - any blue-sky stuff you'd like to share?
<MattyT> hyatt: I mean representing different button orders on platforms - by default, they should be different
<hyatt> I'd like to do some of what matty was talking about...
  e.g., Ui mechanisms for toolbar alteration and reordering (which existed in MozillaClassic)
<Ben_Goodger> that stuff rocked (except for the dialogs for doing it ;)
<rjc> chrisn: TONS of future ideas. Various RDF datasources (LDAP is a good example). Better FTP / local file integration so that you can just drag&drop in-between the two to upload/download.
<Asa> hyatt, will you ever persue xptitlebar for win and linux so we can have a more neoplanet like skin
<rjc> Lots of people are interested in seeing "remote bookmarks" that can be shared. There are lots of ways of doing this.
<hyatt> And I'd like to add more functionality to XUL like docking/.undocking, internal windows on a desktop background, some other new widgets, etc.
  Asa, I don't think an XP title bar on the outside window is the way to go.
  I think we should map images into the title bar, but not alter its behavior.
<shaver> Asa: you could do something like that already, just do a dialog (no title bar) and put some content in the window
<waterson> with enough information available via the generic RDF API
<Asa> ok.
<Sjoerd> hyatt: not even for mozilla 7.0 ?
<simeon> non-rectangular windows?
<waterson> you begin to be able to do interesting things like running an inference engine over it
<rjc> Better internet searching. We already allow aggregating of results from multiple search engines. We need to extend this even more, take it to the next level.
<waterson> e.g., a mail filter that can interact with your bookmarks and addressbook
<Ben_Goodger> rjc: I'm keen on offering at least some search behaviour in the sidebar.
<waterson> there are people currently working on getting prolog hooked up to the RDF APIs
<chrisn> waterson: ah - cool
<hyatt> Sjoerd, I think the better direction is to enhance Mozilla to have a notion of internal windows that can be mnimized, maximized, etc. and dragged around on a desktop
<shaver> simeon: non-rectangular are _hard_ to do XP
<MattyT> I'd like a UI that automatically determined my optimal usages patterns and moulded to it =)
<rjc> Ben: yes, indeed. We need to do this right, so it isn't just a "Search Netcenter" type panel.
<simeon> shaver: dream the impossible dream
<hyatt> Rather than trying to take over the functionality of the title bar (which serves no real purpose as far as I can tell).
<Ben_Goodger> rjc: people (magazines) have criticised 4.x in the past for its popup windows, more fully featured or not.
<Sjoerd> hyatt: ok , i don't need my windows desktop
<myk> generic question: i find my programming goes a lot faster near the end of a product release than near the beginning. is this going to happen to mozilla, such that we will shortly see rapid advances in functionality/performance/features/etc. as you go towards beta?
<waterson> wish I could say "yes" :-)
<hyatt> I think you may see that, but frankly we're still in the midgame (rather than the endgame).
<waterson> i guess we'll see...
<photek> how is the XUL development advanced, compared to the other parts ?
<Ben_Goodger> rjc: some search providers already provide "thin" panels for use in IE's search bar. Adding a panel to support them wouldn't be hard, as long as "_main" was mapped to "_content" for content window targetting.
<XULFool> does your project manager really hit you with a whip?
<hyatt> Owww.
<waterson> cattleprod
<rjc> Ben: <nod> One of the many problems with the sidebar is that it can only display so much info, before it takes more space that the content area.
<delete> will mozilla have download resume?
<shaver> delete: how do you mean?
<Ben_Goodger> the panel headers take up so much space, unfortunately. It'd be nice if there were a way to maximise a panel, and maintain a list of available panels somewhere (e.g. a context menu) for quick switching
<rjc> Ben: yes, although I have to admit that I'm a proponent of aggregating search results from multiple engines, and being "smart" about it.
<hyatt> delete: your questions are good, but they aren't really relevant to the topic.
<shaver> delete: you should ask in #mozilla, maybe
<chrisn> ok ,folks, we gotta wrap this chat up...
<waterson> ok, gotta run.
  thanks a lot.
<Ben_Goodger> hehe
<chrisn> thanks to hyatt, rjc, and waterson for their time!
<hyatt> later
<chrisn> and shaver!
<rjc> Yeah, thanks!
<Asa> thanks guys.
<photek> thanks
<Ben_Goodger> http://www.mozilla.org/xpfe/gettingstarted.html
<myk> thanks
<XULFool> thanks all.
<MattyT> thanks
<geek> thanks guys!
<zinebot> Just appeared in Slashdot:News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters. (http://slashdot.org/index.pl?section=): William Gibson in The News ... Encyclopedia Britannica Goes To The Free
<simeon> thanks thanks thanks
<Ben_Goodger> for getting started in XUL hacking :)
<chrisn> and thanks to everyone for coming
<Tekhir> thanks guys
<Ben_Goodger> bye all
<Sjoerd> for the fellow europeans: sleep well!